Is a QT8/QT10 type machine too much for a home guy?

hackish · Dec 1, 2020

I have been looking to upgrade my Southbend 9L since I now have a workshop. I have a small compressor, 220v RPC power and a big roll type door.

I do a fair bit of aluminum and a little steel. A few pulleys, shafts, housings, threaded parts and such, and because of diameter, sometimes the tailstock is a requirement. Mostly this is prototype work with 1-10 parts being made. My background is in industrial control, embedded systems and programming. I would like a CnC lathe for some shapes and the imperial/metric threading challenges. This is just a side hobby for occasional use.

Would a full-on QT8/QT10 type machine be too much for someone in my position? While I may be willing to spend up to 20k, I worry that serious machines would not be appropriate for occasional weekend use, ie coolant storage, memory / batteries going flat, maintaining proper lubrication etc?

Another option being considered is the Harrison Alpha 400.

Any thoughts?

Helix60 · Dec 1, 2020

I and a few others have the QT10n in our home shop. Mine is the ATC version with the T-3 controller, and has live tooling. A very versatile and accurate machine. Though by todays standards a little slow for large production job. It's perfect for small runs and prototype work. The foot print is a little large for the machine capacity in comparison to a manual machine, but worth it in capability.
A working QT10N with T-2 2-axix controller should cost about $6-10K. One sitting and unsure, considerably less. The T-3 with ATC Live Tooling can go to $18k in working condition.

Regards,
Heli

wippin' boy · Dec 1, 2020

mazaks are kick ass machines
that being said
a 10 to 20k machine is going to be a couple decades old. a machine of this age is subject to a 5k repair bill at most any moment
if you aint making money with something of this class i would be carefull buying something like an old mazak for hobby.
you dont need the balls a mazak has to spin up some cool shit in the shed, they are metal munchers made to keep cycle time to a minimum.

wb

AJ H · Dec 1, 2020

I would recommend Haas TL-1 in this situation. They can do all the CNC stuff plus be used manually. They can run off single phase power. For $100 you can get a double battery upgrade. Coolants are available with great sump life (I use Condat Mecagreen 450). You can get a decent one for around $15k

Gobo · Dec 1, 2020

We have a Haas ST10, some older QT 15's and used to have a QT 10. The mazaks beat the shit our of the Haas 7 days a week. The easy Mazatrol is light years ahead of the haas conversational.

hackish · Dec 1, 2020

Interesting, the suggestions of Hass lathes. Unless I somehow misunderstood, nearly everyone I've talked to in person has told me they were smoking pieces of crap and to run away from them as fast as I could.

To add more detail, I don't need something that can hog a 1/4" off each pass, but I am hoping to have a machine that has some capabilities and precision left in it 0.001" max. I've looked at a few marketplace type manual lathes, but have been disappointed with 0.003-0.005" of wear on the ways and so much slop the screws didn't look like acme anymore. Is there any hope a $10k CnC isn't just a worn out money pit?

Archer120x · Dec 1, 2020

I had a QT10 universal in my garage and brought it with me to the building I bought. A great choice. I ran my on a rotary converter in the garage. The spindle has lots of inertia to speed up and slow down, so the converter needs to be sized accordingly. Mazatrol rocks on a lathe. $10k would buy a very nice old quick turn.

Pete Deal · Dec 1, 2020

Home shop or even small business you really need to be the type that can and is willing to trouble shoot and maintain the machine yourself. No mater what brand. Older, even more so. But, we had a new Haas at my last job and getting the tech in the door was $1200-1500. And we did have to do so a few times.

Past that, accuracy is not a worry with these old guys. My qt15 is made in 1988. I can hold parts with a .0005" window in production pretty easily. It does drift as it warms up but it's very repeatable. And.. They are heavy!

AJ H · Dec 2, 2020

hackish said:
Interesting, the suggestions of Hass lathes. Unless I somehow misunderstood, nearly everyone I've talked to in person has told me they were smoking pieces of crap and to run away from them as fast as I could.

To add more detail, I don't need something that can hog a 1/4" off each pass, but I am hoping to have a machine that has some capabilities and precision left in it 0.001" max. I've looked at a few marketplace type manual lathes, but have been disappointed with 0.003-0.005" of wear on the ways and so much slop the screws didn't look like acme anymore. Is there any hope a $10k CnC isn't just a worn out money pit?

Not by a mile am I going to stand here and tell you Haas is the best machine out there, there's many machines better built. However they are absolutely capable and budget friendly. I have helped multiple Haas shops make millions per year on low investment machines. If you don't need to hold .0002 they are just fine. All machines break and the hourly repair cost is about the same for any of them. The question you need to ask yourself is do I want to pay for a Mercedes when I really only need a Chevy? Do I want the flashy machine or more money in my pocket?

Gobo · Dec 2, 2020

AJ H said:
Not by a mile am I going to stand here and tell you Haas is the best machine out there, there's many machines better built. However they are absolutely capable and budget friendly. I have helped multiple Haas shops make millions per year on low investment machines. If you don't need to hold .0002 they are just fine. All machines break and the hourly repair cost is about the same for any of them. The question you need to ask yourself is do I want to pay for a Mercedes when I really only need a Chevy? Do I want the flashy machine or more money in my pocket?

Correct. Our Haas has made us a lot of money. A case of (more or less) you get what you pay for.

wippin' boy · Dec 2, 2020

i have run haas alot
they are well built light duty affairs
they are nothing near a mazak, you probly dont need a mazak
and yes, any $10,000 cnc lathe could become a money pit
but a 10k haas is gonna be newer than a 10k mazak and newer is better for beating the odds on the 10million cycle thing (average switch life) for nearly all the little things they put into the guts on a cnc machine tool
new in the box tormach (i have no knowledge of there performance) start at $16k
im sure there are others in this class

hell
buy one of these
16" x 40" 3-Phase Gunsmithing Metal Lathe at Grizzly.com
that would leave you better than $10,000 to do a cnc upgrade

that would be a blast

hackish · Dec 2, 2020

wippin' boy said:
i have run haas alot
they are well built light duty affairs
they are nothing near a mazak, you probly dont need a mazak
and yes, any $10,000 cnc lathe could become a money pit
but a 10k haas is gonna be newer than a 10k mazak and newer is better for beating the odds on the 10million cycle thing (average switch life) for nearly all the little things they put into the guts on a cnc machine tool

Switches and minor things don't bother me one bit. The things I want to avoid are needing to replace spindle bearings and seals, or learning that the ways are heavily worn. This may be much less of an issue given the ways covers and integrated lubrication found in proper CnC machines. I am obviously gunshy having wasted a number of hours going out to inspect manual lathes claimed by the owners to be in perfect condition. Sometimes I think I should just pull the dial indicator out and see if their face sinks before wasting time.

Alternatively, if buying remotely, is there a good way to approach having someone look at a machine? For example, do you call the local Haas shop and pay $200-300 for a tech to look at the machine for you? I have seen a few machines going up for auction at local universities. You know they are low hours and hopefully not abused like low dollar manual machines at tech schools. Locally, the students aren't even allowed to touch their CnC machines and the guys running the shop are real old school tool & die level guys.

wippin' boy said:
new in the box tormach (i have no knowledge of there performance) start at $16k
im sure there are others in this class

hell
buy one of these
16" x 40" 3-Phase Gunsmithing Metal Lathe at Grizzly.com
that would leave you better than $10,000 to do a cnc upgrade

I looked at Tormach and decided it wasn't for me when they started talking about stepper motors. I've also helped a few guys out with CnC conversions on their grizzly mills and they fell far short of my expectations. I think this is what has led me to consider Mazak or another real machine. However, time for $, the Haas TL-1 is starting to grow on me. I'm not looking for a Mercedes, but if spending $3-4k more means I'm having fun turning stuff rather than fixing a machine every day, it's money well spent.

Gobo · Dec 2, 2020

How will you generate your machine code?

Archer120x · Dec 2, 2020

gobo said:
how will you generate your machine code?

mazatrol!!!!!

hackish · Dec 3, 2020

Gobo said:
How will you generate your machine code?

I have an old version of Mastercam I hate, or I can look at Autocad Fusion. I'm not terribly concerned about generating G-Code as I've spent enough time doing low level embedded CPU code that I could do it competently by hand if I needed to.

wippin' boy · Dec 3, 2020

Switches and minor things don't bother me one bit

the switches and stuff are a problem for no one
(although you may want to roll over to this thread
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...en-bar-pulling-382588/index2.html#post3669433
of a guy who has spent 6 weeks trying to get past a 6 dollar solid state relay on a control board)
its the fact that the servo drives and spindle bearings are governed by the same sort of path to wornoutdom, shit the bedsville.
yeah $20k gets you almost in his decade for a tl1
thats a big deal in my book as opposed to a mazak thats not even in this century for the same money

Nmbmxer · Dec 3, 2020

I loved my QT10...right up until the spindle drive broke and I scrapped it.

wippin' boy · Dec 3, 2020

Nmbmxer said:
I loved my QT10...right up until the spindle drive broke and I scrapped it.

bingo............

wippin' boy · Dec 3, 2020

you should run this project by the guys over on the CNC forum

JHanko · Dec 5, 2020

I have been running a QT-6T on a home made RPC in my back yard for about 10 years now. If I had to do it all over, I wouldn't change a thing. I cut 6al-4v Ti just about every day. It holds .0005" all day long and rarely askes for anything in return. The only money I have put into it is a rebuilt spindle power supply for $850. Not bad for 10 years of service. Mazatrol connot be beat for 2 axis machining. It is perfect for my needs.

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