Spindle acceleration and deceleration issues on VQC 250/50B - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    Di the guy fix your spindle controller?
    not yet - I had to put him off till I got the capacitors and power unit working again.. After some frustrating times chasing bits, finally have it back together hoping to book the guy to come and have a look in the next week or so pending his availability..

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    Quote Originally Posted by sophtayl View Post
    not yet - I had to put him off till I got the capacitors and power unit working again.. After some frustrating times chasing bits, finally have it back together hoping to book the guy to come and have a look in the next week or so pending his availability..
    Sounds promising. If he wont fix it, let us know. We will give some insight how to do it yourself.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    Sounds promising. If he wont fix it, let us know. We will give some insight how to do it yourself.
    Will do... would love to fix it myself and learn more about it but time is ticking and hopefully the guy can sort it out quick.. If not - I will definitely be having a go..

    jobs are stacking up and time is short..

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    I hope you will never give up =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    I hope you will never give up =)
    We can't afford to give up trying to fix these ourselves as some techs these days know nothing about them.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    hi. have you ever done FR-SE repair where you replaced old school Mitsubishi transistors that cost tons of cash with IGBT and different firing circuit? You can buy cheap IGBT, for the price of these crazy ...old.. 40 years old design COMPLEMENTARY transistors that are installed in FR-SE???
    Yes.

    I have successfully replaced the main power modules in both FR-SE and FR-SF with the more-modern true IGBT's. I never try to match the original part numbers ---- not only are they harder to find, but the original power modules are actually Darlington transistors, which are slower and less robust.

    How do I match the older transistor P/N with a newer transistor P/N? I simply search Ebay for power modules of similar physical size, amperage, and voltage ratings. After finding new ones that look promising, I use Google to determine if they are true IGBT's, and if so, that's what I buy. And like I say, they have worked fine every time.

    You do have to replace all of them all as a set though! The newer IGBT's switch faster, and should not be mixed with the slower original Darlingtons. I tried that once, and the drive blew the older transistors within 5 minutes.

    I use the original control board, with the original DK434's (FR-SE) or DK456's (FR-SF)....although for a blown drive these often have had to be replaced as well. (I replace them all for the hell of it...haha!)

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Yes.

    I have successfully replaced the main power modules in both FR-SE and FR-SF with the more-modern true IGBT's. I never try to match the original part numbers ---- not only are they harder to find, but the original power modules are actually Darlington transistors, which are slower and less robust.

    How do I match the older transistor P/N with a newer transistor P/N? I simply search Ebay for power modules of similar physical size, amperage, and voltage ratings. After finding new ones that look promising, I use Google to determine if they are true IGBT's, and if so, that's what I buy. And like I say, they have worked fine every time.

    You do have to replace all of them all as a set though! The newer IGBT's switch faster, and should not be mixed with the slower original Darlingtons. I tried that once, and the drive blew the older transistors within 5 minutes.

    I use the original control board, with the original DK434's (FR-SE) or DK456's (FR-SF)....although for a blown drive these often have had to be replaced as well. (I replace them all for the hell of it...haha!)

    ToolCat
    yes. I think old ones, Darlington ones need less BE Voltage to open itself. IGBT might gonna need more GATE voltage to quickly charge input capacity and open CE channel. That is what I worried about.

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    quick update.....

    Guy came out to have a look this afternoon....

    Power supply was playing silly buggers and was deciding to fail while we were testing....

    He noted that he had come across the same problem (exact same symptoms) once before in his time and he had traced it to a dodgy power supply. He changed Power supply and problem fixed.

    Given the intermittent nature of the unit at the moment, I am going to get another supply to try. Then can investigate the board if there are still issues.


    There may be other things wrong with the existing PSU beyond the Capacitors. Will investigate that separately once the machine is back up and running..

    The journey continues...


    (still not giving up)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sophtayl View Post
    quick update.....

    Guy came out to have a look this afternoon....

    Power supply was playing silly buggers and was deciding to fail while we were testing....

    He noted that he had come across the same problem (exact same symptoms) once before in his time and he had traced it to a dodgy power supply. He changed Power supply and problem fixed.

    Given the intermittent nature of the unit at the moment, I am going to get another supply to try. Then can investigate the board if there are still issues.


    There may be other things wrong with the existing PSU beyond the Capacitors. Will investigate that separately once the machine is back up and running..

    The journey continues...


    (still not giving up)
    3 month will be tomorrow since you have it. Make sure your NC memory backup batteries are good. Otherwise more drama to come.

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    3 month will be tomorrow since you have it. Make sure your NC memory backup batteries are good. Otherwise more drama to come.
    I put new batteries in a couple of years ago and keep them charged. I found some 2nd hand ones on ebay. Hoping for delivery in a couple of weeks maybe 3...

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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    Default and it continues...

    I received the power supply last week. I was able to install it last week but still having issues.

    Power supply is healthy but I still have the original issue presenting - i.e. the acceleration and deceleration of the spindle is slower than it should be.

    I have checked the voltages at the points coming out of the power unit and these are on the money as per spec sheet.

    I have checked the wave forms at the corresponding check points for the inverter and converter and am getting the correct waveforms. I did notice most had a peak to peak of 5-5.4V, while one was at 6.48v and another was 6.72V (refer attached.) These were taken with the spindle at approx. 450rpm.

    imag002.jpg


    imag001.jpg

    All others are similar to this..

    imag003.jpg


    Any thoughts if this difference is an issue? Would this difference in voltage possibly be contributing?

    Any suggestions as to where to from here?

    Is it something I need to check through a transient of speed to see if there is a difference between each check point?


    going a lot crazy ….


    Mick
    Last edited by sophtayl; 11-29-2018 at 02:07 PM.

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    ages ago you said something like:

    One converter channel had no cycling waveform (flat line)

    what about now? all channels are good? Every single transistor ( invertor ) and (convertor) ...all of them have good signals at bases???

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    ages ago you said something like:

    One converter channel had no cycling waveform (flat line)

    what about now? all channels are good? Every single transistor ( invertor ) and (convertor) ...all of them have good signals at bases???
    yes they are all good now, just the peak to peak on 2 of them are higher than the others. I think the power supply issues were creating the problems I was getting earlier.

    I haven't checked them during the transient stages (accelerating / decelerating) as I need to get a hand to do that while I monitor..


    I also rechecked the PLG unit and signals. From what I have read, I should be getting 20v peak to peak on the amplified A & B Channels. I am getting this on 2 of them (A_ and B_), but on the other 2 I am getting 6v (after amplification).

    This may be suggesting that the PLG, or the CPU2 board are the problems...

    To add to the confusion, When I speed up and down with the control buttons, the response is as expected. When I press the Stop button from speed, or start button with a high speed setpoint, the problem occurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sophtayl View Post
    yes they are all good now, just the peak to peak on 2 of them are higher than the others. I think the power supply issues were creating the problems I was getting earlier.

    I haven't checked them during the transient stages (accelerating / decelerating) as I need to get a hand to do that while I monitor..


    I also rechecked the PLG unit and signals. From what I have read, I should be getting 20v peak to peak on the amplified A & B Channels. I am getting this on 2 of them (A_ and B_), but on the other 2 I am getting 6v (after amplification).

    This may be suggesting that the PLG, or the CPU2 board are the problems...

    To add to the confusion, When I speed up and down with the control buttons, the response is as expected. When I press the Stop button from speed, or start button with a high speed setpoint, the problem occurs.
    well then you should probably borrow CPU2 board from someone and swap it and see the difference. This 20V amplitude signal is something of not clear to me at all. I ween this Mitsubishi doc about 20V signal on CPU board pins, but when I tested these signals ages ago , there was no 20V but much much smaller amplitude..

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  19. #35
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    So some more info to the puzzle

    Checked the transition of the waveforms between speeds ( during changes)

    The inverter side looks to be changing with speed control change. The converter side does not change with speed change ( i.e. same frequency) waveforms are still present, do i guess this suggests the base transistors are good.

    When I speed down on the button, led 18 (lights with converter regeneration) flickers as it gets the signal. If I hit the red button to stop the spindle, led 18 flickers on for an instant and the goes out.

    Would anyone have a circuit diagram for the SE-IO1 card?

    It might help identify a bit more.


    Only real alternative at the moment is to replace the card for now ( if I can find one) and compare the old one to the new one when i have time





    Cheers

    Mick




    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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    u can forget about any Mitsubishi drawings. I bet they employ people and ask them to sign death warrant if drawings are leaked. So much money Japanese made and keep making on this spindle controllers. They are good for what they are..... but I bet Japs never though that their machines would be still runable in 2018 and higher ))) and they still make lots of money, or whoever repair them

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    Default Update time.

    A big shout out to Sudsy55 for lending me his SEIO1 and CPU2 boards to try and identify which one is causing the problem..

    I installed the SEIO1 board and it all worked properly. I reinstalled my SEIO1 board and the problem is there. So we have narrowed it down to the SEIO1 board.

    I have checked resistance at the check points between the 2 boards (for comparison) but did not find anything other than 1 cap that looked a bit iffy. I de-soldered it and checked it and it is reading fine so reinstalled it but the same issues are still there.

    I haven't been able to source the circuit diagram for the board (it was a long shot) but think there is a problem with the frequency control section of the circuit based on what I have seen in the waveforms during speed transition ... unfortunately, that is about the limit of what I can do with it at the moment unless there are so other ideas anyone can think of (I'm not sure what components do what so need to invest a bit of time to see how that circuit works etc)


    I am going to replace the SEIO1 card, but open to a whole control unit as the individual card is made of unobtainium (and costs as much from the agent as the full second hand controller shipped internationally).


    I have looked to see if there is any information on retro-fitting an FR-SF controller, but my searches are turning up short.


    Has anyone done this or can point me in the direction of some threads on it?

    Cheers

    Mick

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    Quote Originally Posted by sophtayl View Post
    A big shout out to Sudsy55 for lending me his SEIO1 and CPU2 boards to try and identify which one is causing the problem..

    I installed the SEIO1 board and it all worked properly. I reinstalled my SEIO1 board and the problem is there. So we have narrowed it down to the SEIO1 board.

    I have checked resistance at the check points between the 2 boards (for comparison) but did not find anything other than 1 cap that looked a bit iffy. I de-soldered it and checked it and it is reading fine so reinstalled it but the same issues are still there.

    I haven't been able to source the circuit diagram for the board (it was a long shot) but think there is a problem with the frequency control section of the circuit based on what I have seen in the waveforms during speed transition ... unfortunately, that is about the limit of what I can do with it at the moment unless there are so other ideas anyone can think of (I'm not sure what components do what so need to invest a bit of time to see how that circuit works etc)


    I am going to replace the SEIO1 card, but open to a whole control unit as the individual card is made of unobtainium (and costs as much from the agent as the full second hand controller shipped internationally).


    I have looked to see if there is any information on retro-fitting an FR-SF controller, but my searches are turning up short.


    Has anyone done this or can point me in the direction of some threads on it?

    Cheers

    Mick
    I see no problem to install FR-SF as long as you connect properly speed signal from NC, then feedback like UP to SPEED, ZERO speed and so on, EMG signals. The most important part will be to have PLG sensor to send same signal for FR-SF, and make sure M19 code is working for tool change operation.

    you can actually install less expansive drives (more modern) as long as they accept PLG feedback signal and you can operate speed with analog signal, that is coming from NC. Actually FR-SE ( i see it ) has analog input for RPM and digital binary code pins. It is all about available information that comes with new spindle. The other problem would be M19 code, spindle orientation. New drive must understand this command. FR-SE had input ORIENT COMMAND and output ORIENT ARRIVED, so new one must be able to do the same.


    Spindle Drives (VFDs)

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    Since you are running now, a simple test that can be done quickly that will verify that all phases to the motor and both + & - are working is as follows.

    Run the spindle at a very low RPM as in 1 to 5. The spindle should turn fairly smoothly and not stop or turn in reverse momentairy then jumping to get back up to speed. Remember what it looks like when it is working properly.

    I have used this test as malfunctions surface (like drifting out of orient during a tool change) and then a few minutes later it works properly. Usually the problem is the power supply that has 1 or more of those in sections B - I that is flakey as the root cause of the problem.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by noname777 View Post
    I see no problem to install FR-SF as long as you connect properly speed signal from NC, then feedback like UP to SPEED, ZERO speed and so on, EMG signals. The most important part will be to have PLG sensor to send same signal for FR-SF, and make sure M19 code is working for tool change operation.

    you can actually install less expansive drives (more modern) as long as they accept PLG feedback signal and you can operate speed with analog signal, that is coming from NC. Actually FR-SE ( i see it ) has analog input for RPM and digital binary code pins. It is all about available information that comes with new spindle. The other problem would be M19 code, spindle orientation. New drive must understand this command. FR-SE had input ORIENT COMMAND and output ORIENT ARRIVED, so new one must be able to do the same.


    Spindle Drives (VFDs)

    i am very skeptical about this: the frequency control section - as to arrive at this conclusion we need to know how spindle unit is built. I do believe that the guy , who messaged above (hitandmiss), that few transistors are not fully opened while running ac motor. And it just takes longer time for the rest of them to pickup the speed

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