Used Vari-axis from Premier Equipt. , Spindle fractures

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

We just bought a used vari-axis from Premier Equipment in Florida. They gave us a 30 day guarantee that it was in working order at time of shipment, although it became very clear to me that they never inspected the machine nor knew anything about it. After running some test pieces I noticed some marks on the tool holder. I lightly prussian blued the tool holder taper and it showed 20 percent contact at top, a pretty severe bellmouth. Further visual inspection of the spindle showed cracks/fractures at bottom and top of taper. This was confirmed using a SPOTCHECK dye penetrant kit.

Has anyone dealt with Premier before? They are saying that it came from a shop running tight tolerances and they didn't have any problems so the machine must be okay...

Bell mouthed and fractured spindle.. Would you call this good working order?

I will post some pics later.

SND · Nov 1, 2012

I know a few members had less than optimal feedback, but then there's also a few hear that have positive. Probably the difference between those that got a good machine and those that didn't.

Otherwise, isn't every shop only machining aluminum, brass and plastic to tight tolerances ?...

best of luck, probably not a cheap fix.

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

Joe788 · Nov 1, 2012

Can you post some pictures of the machine? I'm curious which one it is. They have some they've been advertising for quite awhile.

Have you guys cut anything with it? Obviously they need to replace that spindle - and it's on them for selling a "guaranteed" machine without even looking at it.

Steve's Hobby · Nov 1, 2012

Its always good to hear feed back, as I am in the market eventualy for a Mazak or Mori or Okuma, top of the line, turn mill and VMC, I always look at premiers offerings, hopefully they fix it immediately so you can report to folks like me whom can keep them under consideration, or not, in which case I will buy new. Maybe they are too big to care, but...their
WEB Site claims they have experienced techs whom go through the machines, at least thats my understanding, if the machine was not up to manufacturers specs, then it should have been clearly stated, otherwise, all funds should be returned or the machine promptly, and completely brought up to said manufactures specs, otherwise... all the marketing, web sites, sales pitches are just talk and I for one will be interested in out it all turn out or I will not consider a purchase.

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

Look familiar!?

Deliver was delayed because the company running it wanted to run a few more parts off.

Both Premeir and Mazak are trying to give me the "no big deal" story but I am not buying it.

Talked to three spindle builders and they all said it must be replaced.

Steve's Hobby · Nov 1, 2012

As Premier touts itself as a top Mazak reseller, and it is well known, that the top Mazak Brass tune in to the forum, if I sat in the Mazak chair, I would certainly correct the situation at once, as we all know, whom ever, you partner with, is a direct reflection on you. I have a Mazak, would like to have another one, should be taken care of and today, no delays, no out of pocket costs and a few new tool holders or something for your trouble, will help both M & P's creditbility.

Joe788 · Nov 1, 2012

epmtool said:
View attachment 62078

Look familiar!?

Deliver was delayed because the company running it wanted to run a few more parts off.

Both Premeir and Mazak are trying to give me the "no big deal" story but I am not buying it.

Talked to three spindle builders and they all said it must be replaced.

If it were just those little tiny cracks, I might say no big deal. But the fact that those little tiny cracks have reduced the taper contact to nearly nothing - that "no big deal" story obvious don't fly.

I do recognize the machine from the ads though. How is the rest of the condition other than that?

SMT · Nov 1, 2012

I bought a lathe a while back from Premier and it worked out ok, for the most part. It was as advertised but needed a little maintenance love.

Have you paid for this machine in full yet?

The guys at Premier are a little "slick" for sure. They're all about sell sell sell.

Looks to me like you have enough evidence to support a "not as advertised" case. Call em up, tell em how it is and if they tell you to F off, call your lawyer and let him fight it out with premier.

Tom3197 · Nov 1, 2012

SMT said:
I bought a lathe a while back from Premier and it worked out ok, for the most part. It was as advertised but needed a little maintenance love.

Have you paid for this machine in full yet?

The guys at Premier are a little "slick" for sure. They're all about sell sell sell.

Looks to me like you have enough evidence to support a "not as advertised" case. Call em up, tell em how it is and if they tell you to F off, call your lawyer and let him fight it out with premier.

X2. I've dealt with premier and had a so so experience also told "no big deal". It wasn't because the machine was only 18K. Not worth lawyering up for...cheaper to fix. If I spent $$ on a vari axis with guarantees and they are not met I would not hesitate to get my lawyer involved because the only thing you will get till then is lip service! :skep:

Bobw · Nov 1, 2012

I bought a machine from Premier a while back, 4 years ago or so. They did me very well on the shipping, about 30% of the lowest price I found.

The machine was missing the 3 jaw for the 4th axis, they couldn't find it, they sent me a new one. The price of the machine was fair, the condition
when it showed up was absolutely phenomenal. Whoever had this machine took really really good care of it, (except for the bit of rust from the
crappy coolant). That was a nice surprise.

Anyways the 30 day warranty from them was explained to me as basically a DOA warranty, It'll fire up, spindle will spin, tool changer will change tools and
the table will move, its a used machine.

I'd say you are pretty much SOL. Mazak had some spindle problems there for a while, I don't think they will admit they had a problem and give you one for free.
I also wouldn't expect someone selling a used machine to do a particle inspect on the spindle.

What I would do is play nice(but firm) with Premier, I'm pretty sure they are the Mazak dealer for Florida and Georgia.

Sucks, probably shouldn't be that way, but you did buy a used machine, and you apparently didn't go check it out or send a competent tech to check it.

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

"I also wouldn't expect someone selling a used machine to do a particle inspect on the spindle."

The cracks were plainly visible without the die and it almost looked like some genius took some emery paper in an attempt to cover it up.

"Sucks, probably shouldn't be that way, but you did buy a used machine, and you apparently didn't go check it out or send a competent tech to check it."

If it were my money, I certainly would have checked it out. I wouldn't spend 200 dollers on a used car without seeing it let alone 200+k for a machine + rigging etc. If fact, our service guy passed through the town the machine was in on his way to IMTS just two weeks before delivery. When I suggested he check it out, my company owner said it wasn't necessary as it had a warranty...

We are having someone come in to grind the spindle/check drawbar force Monday, perhaps the spindle tech will have some insight as to what caused the cracks. I find it hard to believe that the ISO 9001:2000, AS 9100 certified previous owner company doing mostly aerospace, military, and optics work would be running acurite parts with a bell-mouthed, 20 percent contact spindle and not know it. I can't help but think that SOMEONE had to have known that the spindle needed replaced.

The big question now would be will the spindle "move" soon after regrind, how quickly will the fractures grow, and what other issues we will find once I start running this thing.

Bobw · Nov 1, 2012

epmtool said:
The big question now would be will the spindle "move" after regrind, and what other issues we will find once I start running this thing.

There goes your Christmas bonus.

I was going to say, I'd probably grind it, and run it until it explodes. Then try to get a spindle out of premier/mazak for as cheap as possible.

Re-looking at the pics, thats not normal, almost looks like shitty material or a shitty heat treat.

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

Yeah, I feel pretty terrible being the one to suggest buying a Mazak. We were originally looking for another DMG DMU-70 evo. DMG looked at the machine we were considering buying and flat out told us not to buy it as it was crap. I cannot imagine a scenario that would cause the roughly 20 cracks .150 to .325 long on the top and 20 cracks on the bottom of the spindle. Does anyone know what the approximate hardness of a spindle should be? I think running till it explodes is a pretty terrible idea. Does anyone think this could be a possible safety liability? Lets say 8000 rpm 3 inch face mill lets loose along with a couple chunks of spindle sleeve.

Speedie · Nov 1, 2012

Premier doesnt do any checks on the machine other than it fires up and moves. They are slinging guns in the used market. I wouldnt buy a snowcone from them.

Bobw · Nov 1, 2012

epmtool said:
Does anyone think this could be a possible safety liability? Lets say 8000 rpm 3 inch face mill lets loose along with a couple chunks of spindle sleeve.

That might be the angle to take... to get them to come up with a good spindle. That's got to be a material defect.

Speedie,

I didn't want anything to do with them either(their prices were usually hovering between 'outrageous' and 'stratospheric'),
then I found the machine I wanted, at the price I wanted(wasn't what I wanted[wasn't free], but it was fair), and I bought it,
they were pretty decent to work with.
Its a used machine, its like a used car, you are essentially buying somebody else's problems.

epmtool · Nov 1, 2012

Did you deal with them personally or is this just what you hear?

Joe788 · Nov 2, 2012

epmtool said:
Yeah, I feel pretty terrible being the one to suggest buying a Mazak. We were originally looking for another DMG DMU-70 evo. DMG looked at the machine we were considering buying and flat out told us not to buy it as it was crap. I cannot imagine a scenario that would cause the roughly 20 cracks .150 to .325 long on the top and 20 cracks on the bottom of the spindle. Does anyone know what the approximate hardness of a spindle should be? I think running till it explodes is a pretty terrible idea. Does anyone think this could be a possible safety liability? Lets say 8000 rpm 3 inch face mill lets loose along with a couple chunks of spindle sleeve.

I kinda doubt the cracks will grow much, if they're only that size on a 8-9 year old machine. That machine probably has several million toolchanges on it. It's one of the downsides to 5 axis machines, as the majority of cases - they're only making one part at a time.

I'd still want it replaced, but there is a good chance you'll be totally fine once they grind it and fix the drawbar pressure (if needed).

If it lets a 3 inch face mill fly - it'll just trash your spindle, whatever the tool hits, and the underwear of anybody standing near. It won't come out of the enclosure though.

epmtool · Nov 2, 2012

" I kinda doubt the cracks will grow much, if they're only that size on a 8-9 year old machine. That machine probably has several million toolchanges on it. It's one of the downsides to 5 axis machines, as the majority of cases - they're only making one part at a time. "

If the cracks are a few years old, it would certainly put my mind at ease, but for all I know they could have just appeared and instead of replacing the spindle they just unloaded the machine.

SMT · Nov 2, 2012

Do you know where the machine came from? Could you contact that company and ask for the machine's history? They have no reason to lie about anything now. Additionally, you could call mazak tech service and ask for a service/warranty/parts history for that machine's serial number.

Used Vari-axis from Premier Equipt. , Spindle fractures

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