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Thread: B&A Precision

  1. #5221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Did you jist helicoil the back side, or use sumpthin' a bit more robust for repeated use?
    Like a threaded sleeve?

    How 'bout under the head?
    Did you use a hardened worsher?
    Or maybe even a hardened shouldered sleeve that presses/slips down inside the upper bore a bit?

    I have some fixtures that (when in use) we maybe tighten/loosen maybe 15 times a day.
    These are 1/4-20 SHCS's in 4140 PH, and either tightening by hand with a T handle allen wrench, or a light hit with a 3/8 batt powered drill with low trq setting.
    All too frequently I need to pull those wedges all back off and run a drill back through the holes to open them back up as they mushroom down in, even in the harder material with only medium torque.

    So - kind'a wonderin' how yours were set up this way, or even what Steve does with theirs?
    OR - maybe just what troubles you've had in regards to this in production?

    I can see that Steve has at least a worsher under his, but .. maybe it's a sleeve?
    The hex head likely is more better to keep chips from gathering up in the socket head...


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    All from McMastercarr:
    91731A058 ~ 5/8-11 stainless threaded insert
    91251A814 ~ 5/8-11 x 5" cap-screw
    7814K25 ~ 5/8 I.D. bronze thrust bearing (its just a worsher!)

    Never had an issue with any of it. Many thousands of cycles, not one flinch.
    Apparently coolant is a fine lube for a black-oxide screw in stainless threads? It all still looks brand new. They were getting torqued to 40lb/ft.
    I was worried about fines finding their way through the slits in to the center hole the 5/8" screw goes through. That never even happened.
    Those things worked far better than I had even hoped!

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  3. #5222
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    91731A058 ~ 5/8-11 stainless threaded insert


    Well, for whatever reason - the pic won't load, but you can click the link....

    [img]https://www.mcmaster.com/mvb/library...t%20metall.gif[/img]


    Yeah ... those ....


    I ran some alum hydraulic housings a cpl yrs ago that got some of those stuffed down in them.
    I recall having to open the bore up on the alum thread a bunch to let the insert drop in.
    They seemed awfully cheesy to me....

    But I guess you're having good luck with them eh?

    Is there any way to git them back out to replace?
    If I recall - don't you beat those tabs down into the base metal to lock in place?


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I recall having to open the bore up on the alum thread a bunch to let the insert drop in.
    They seemed awfully cheesy to me....

    But I guess you're having good luck with them eh?

    Is there any way to git them back out to replace?
    If I recall - don't you beat those tabs down into the base metal to lock in place?


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Yea, I always thread-mill for them. Comp to fit. Tap never gives a good fit.
    I have never had to remove one.
    But, the sentiment from a bunch of guys last time this subject came up in here was: interpolate them out with an end-mill.

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  6. #5224
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Yea, I always thread-mill for them. Comp to fit. Tap never gives a good fit.
    I have never had to remove one.
    But, the sentiment from a bunch of guys last time this subject came up in here was: interpolate them out with an end-mill.
    Ya, a keensert (trademark/company name?) is a whole different animal to remove than an helicoil...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Is there any way to git them back out to replace?
    If I recall - don't you beat those tabs down into the base metal to lock in place?
    We use Keenserts a lot in aerospace. The procedure for removal is to drill into it 1/3rd the way down with a drill size just large enough to expose the locking tabs. You then take a sharp punch and knock the locking tabs inward to the center of the insert releasing them from the parent material. After that you can take an Easy Out and simply wind the insert back out of the threaded hole.

    We have some really experienced guys who can remove and replace Keenserts on finished assemblies in no time and make it look easy. I'm always nervous when I have to do it because the assemblies can be worth upwards of $100k and I don't want to make a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post


    I ran some alum hydraulic housings a cpl yrs ago that got some of those stuffed down in them.
    I recall having to open the bore up on the alum thread a bunch to let the insert drop in.
    They seemed awfully cheesy to me....

    But I guess you're having good luck with them eh?

    Is there any way to git them back out to replace?
    If I recall - don't you beat those tabs down into the base metal to lock in place?
    They have a larger tap drill size than a standard thread of the same size.
    To remove them, you just drill them out with the specified drill size.

    2020_Carr_Lane_Catalog

    FYI there are thin and thick wall, so double check prior to drilling.

    I prefer them 10x more than helicoils.

  9. #5227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post


    I ran some alum hydraulic housings a cpl yrs ago that got some of those stuffed down in them.
    I recall having to open the bore up on the alum thread a bunch to let the insert drop in.
    They seemed awfully cheesy to me....

    But I guess you're having good luck with them eh?

    Is there any way to git them back out to replace?
    If I recall - don't you beat those tabs down into the base metal to lock in place?
    They have a larger tap drill size than a standard thread of the same size.
    To remove them, you just drill them out with the specified drill size.

    2020_Carr_Lane_Catalog

    FYI there are thin and thick wall, so double check prior to drilling.

    I prefer them 10x more than helicoils.

  10. #5228
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    Today is a good day!
    That chip hopper has not needed to sit under that conveyor in a very long time.

    img_0984.jpg

    The Brother is officially earning its keep again. For a while anyway.
    I have material coming in for a lathe job today. That means all 5 spindles are busy.
    And, wheelie's stress level is way down.

  11. #5229
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    So, circling back to post 5176, when I had the remaining 4 Oranges mounted in the big-fat-haas after stealing 6 for the Brother.
    Now that the Brother is finally up and running with vises in it: it would be so much work to do anything else in there, they are for the foreseeable future, PERMANENT.
    That means, I may as well go ahead and make the big-fat-haas permanent as well.
    So, way back when I bough this pile, the first thing I did was make a pair of aluminum sub-plates (post# 3759). All because I did not want to machine the haas pallets.
    Simply because I wasn't exactly sure if my plan was gonna work (it did). And/or how permanent the set up was going to be (it ended up not permanent, LOL).
    Now, having run this pile for a few weeks as a normal VMC (working through the doors, not @ the pallet changer). The sub-plates suck. Too tall.
    I am confident in the vise locations. And, as usual, I absolutely despise the stupid haas "chip tray". They suck far worse than the sub-plates! LOL
    Yea, I know they are supposed to direct chips away from flowing under the pallet. IDGAF, all it really does is shower you in chips/coolant any time you try to blow something off. They got to go!
    I already fired the one on the other side off a while ago. I had time, and the pallet wasn't getting used.
    The other aspect of this little project happening right now. The parts running in the Brother are the the parts from that big production job I ran balls out for a year on. One of said parts gets a third operation that happens on the 4th axis. At the Brothers current pace, the 4th will probably need to run one shift per week to stay caught up. I am not interested in, One: setting that job up once a week. It is a huge pain in the ass set-up! Two: setting it up in the VF2ss where it used to live. And, then that machine either sitting idle 4 days per week. Or only having one vise, and only 6 open tool pockets available 4 days per week. It will probably take me about 6 months to run out the material I have on hand. And, he has already placed another PO with Hydro for more.
    It is looking like the job will run for at least a while like this anyways.
    Soooooo.........I have this un-used pallet over on the big-fat-haas! That machine will run a 4th. The problem the whole time has been: That machine is brushless (sigma-1).
    My 4th is brushed. With the vises where they were, and the stupid chip trays on there, the 4th would not go through the pallet door opening (too wide).
    After realizing that my brushed 4th was not compatible with that machine, I never gave it any more thought.
    I just figured I would need to pony up for an HRT210SP if I wanted a 4th on that pallet (SP is narrower). I was really more interested in a 5x trunnion. And, lately I just simply couldn't afford anything anyways.
    Then my haas buddy was over a few days ago. And, pointed out that the VF2ss that I do use my 4th in is also a brushless sigma-1 machine, DUH!
    And, that it has a brushed to brushless converter mounted inside the electrical cabinet to facilitate using! Well, sumbeech!
    I did some more indepth measuring, and discovered: if the stupid chip trays were gone, and I move the Orange doubles over 1/2", the 4th will go through the door!

    So, here we go on another work-holding project, LOL
    Sub-plates gone, and firing the 2nd stupid "chip-tray" to the trash bin!

    img_0987.jpg

    Checking fit/clearance:

    img_0988.jpg

    img_0990.jpg

    If it fits, it ships!

    img_0989.jpg

    This is the rig that allows a brushed box to run on a brushless machine:

    img_0985.jpg

    So, now I need to decide if I want to pirate that get up, and transport it to the big-fat-machine?
    Or, buy the external box they also have available? Even though they want $1250 for the external box. And, I already own this rig:
    I am leaning towards buying the external box. And, leaving the VF2ss alone.

    So, the YUGE beneficial aspect of this is: on the one day a week I need to run OP3 on the production parts?
    It is a simple matter of ~ M50 P2; cycle-start, program list, select program, memory, reset, cycle-start. And, that job is running! (and of course the umbilicals for the 4th)
    When caught up, simply pulling pallet-1 back in with vises, and the 40 tool carousel, leaves me plenty of room to job-shop.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 11-08-2019 at 10:08 AM.

  12. #5230
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    If you can afford it, that is the way to go. Next thing you know you will need to put the box back on the other machine.

    Tom

  13. #5231
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    Can you rotate that 4th in any other orientation and still access the parts? The overhang on the other pallet makes me nervous!

  14. #5232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    Can you rotate that 4th in any other orientation and still access the parts? The overhang on the other pallet makes me nervous!
    I was wondering who would make that comment, LOL
    Yea, I tried it that way. Didn't like it. And, it is a bunch of bullshit to align A to Y in FeatureCAM.
    I am sure there is an easier way than I do it. But, when I try to program a 4th, aligned to Y it fights me the whole way.
    That, and I want to finish the tombstone I started for this thing years ago. And, it would be way too long to fit.
    Don't let the overhang bug you. The pallets move in X, not Z, LOL

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  16. #5233
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    Not that this is relevant but have you seen that midaco 4th axis tombstone table setup where you can use two tombstones and have 1 rotary unit?

  17. #5234
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Not that this is relevant but have you seen that midaco 4th axis tombstone table setup where you can use two tombstones and have 1 rotary unit?
    Nope. Got a link?

  18. #5235
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    That really shouldn't be too big'a deal to make if you wanted to.

    A big center pin in the middle - prolly with 4 flats...
    Another smaller pin at 12:00

    Then a center in the other end of the fixture for the dead center.


    ???

    Mine bolt directly to the faceplate, but they don't change for months typically, and they are 100-200# anyhow, so ...


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  19. #5236
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Nope. Got a link?

    YouTube

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  21. #5237
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Interesting. Not something I would have much use for. But, interesting.

  22. #5238
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    OH BOY!

    Big kahuna's!


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    That Midaco deal looks like a disaster waiting to happen. A regular Midaco has enough trouble with chips and alignment. Lets put a bunch more shit out in the open and add that whole extra indexer axis and trunnion to align to the machine and each other.

    I think I'd rather deal with an extra cable.

  24. #5240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    That Midaco deal looks like a disaster waiting to happen. A regular Midaco has enough trouble with chips and alignment. Lets put a bunch more shit out in the open and add that whole extra indexer axis and trunnion to align to the machine and each other.

    I think I'd rather deal with an extra cable.
    Was my first thought as well. Many years ago, I was an operator on a couple VF3s with midaco pallet changers. What nightmares. Constant chip generated errors.
    The memories made it real tough to buy a pallet machine actually. But, I can honestly say: the haas changer is much more well behaved than the midacos I ran.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 11-09-2019 at 05:47 PM.

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