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  1. #5341
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    Seems like it would be a hassle to climb up on the rack to use the bandsaw!

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    Wheelie
    Are the haas rocket launching swarf screws swapable - can you move it to come out the other side?
    Does this help in any way - free up space?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Odd to hear you say that - TH400s are pretty much indestructible if prepped properly (including an SFI case if needed), and there are tons of aftermarket gear sets for them. 2.10 is a really popular option to give a better 1/2 split. Hell, the new hotness right now are second gear leave and 2-speed TH400s.

    Other than being heavy, they really don't have downsides that haven't been fixed by the aftermarket.

    If you really want indestructible, go to a Lenco with a Bruno drive!

    BTW great seeing the workload through the shop on Instagram!
    My comment was more tongue in cheek Mopar/Chevy bantering than it was serious. I know TH400's are decent.
    It is true I am not a Chevy tranny fan. And, I am a huge fan of the TF727 and all its decedents.
    And, I have no clue what is out there aftermarket for Chevy tranny's.
    I do know a guy can easily build a 727 to be just as strong as anything short of a full on ala-cart glide. They are crazy tough.
    All my TH experience comes from 25ish years ago, and a bunch of broke ass farm-boys playing in the mud back in PA.
    There was one constant: Chevy guys were always smoking transmissions. Where Dodge guys almost never had tranny issues. 727's are bomb proof.
    More than once I saw guys with big power 454's and 38" plus boggers spin the drive lugs right out of the case in TH400's.
    That is one of the things I like about the 727. The case supports the pump, sprag, and rear output. That's it.
    If you run a bolt-in sprag, and roller output support (with manual VB). The case is pretty damn tough.
    You will see the occasional servo blow the top of its bore off the case. But, that, and spinning press-in sprags, are really the only case failures you will see.

    I mean, C'mon! 48RE's, which are basically a 727, when built/tuned properly will live reliably behind a 2000lb/ft Cummins for pete's sake!
    Try that with a TH400, LOL

    Machtek7's comment kinda caught me off guard. And, I figured it was just a little ribbing between Chevy/Dodge guys. Which I am cool with
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 01-19-2020 at 02:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Wheelie
    Are the haas rocket launching swarf screws swapable - can you move it to come out the other side?
    Does this help in any way - free up space?
    No, the chutes are not reversible. I wish they were!
    And, no, that doesn't really help. And, you blocked the rear man door, LOL.
    I am also not entertaining the idea of moving the coolant station. Because: plumbing, and it is lagged to the floor. It works there.

    The top two VF2's stay put. And, the new VF2 goes right there on the bottom because:
    If you guys remember in the very beginning of this shop, I had a third VF2 sitting there.

    17966703_1550898078277256_8289491725775812884_o.jpg

    Remember. I have to factor the amount of work involved in to this whole project as well.
    I did not move the knife-box, or air-drop when I pulled that VF2 out and parked the big-fat-haas there.
    So, pulling the big-fat-haas, and parking another VF2 there will be very simple.
    As will shuffling the Bro and Lathe. The conduit and wire going to the Bro now will work (I'll need to shorten about 5').
    The lathe will need to be about 15' longer. But, I have enough #6 squirreled away for that.
    The only materials I need to buy will be to come out of the main panel, and wrap around to the new big-fat-haas location (about 100').

    So, I will have basically zero down-time for the two existing VF2's. The new VF2 will be running the day it lands.
    I'll be able to have the Brother going the day after that. And, the big-fat-haas done over the weekend.
    I only have one lathe job right now. And, it will be done before this goes down. So, no rush there.

    On reversing the chip chutes: the conveyor on the Brother IS reversible. And, it is flipped from its current config in that drawing.

    Here is the only pic I have showing the current layout:

    20171219_202519.jpg

    You have to look for the lathe (behind the Bro). In the very beginning, when it was just three VF2's and the lathe, the layout was great.
    Then, came the big-fat-haas. It is where it is because it was easy. It's not a bad spot for it. But, its not great either.
    Then the Brother. It is where it is because, it was the only place I could put it! LOL. And, it is a terrible spot.
    Then there is the pallet rack. All the space to the left of the Brother is basically left wide open so I can get to the rack with Pit-Stop.
    This is a huge waste of valuable space. And, really quite stupid on my part putting the pallet rack there in the first place.
    I have a knack for learning my lessons the hard way! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    It looks like a lot of walking to service each machine, how long are your normal cycle times? At least for the VF2s. My shop is 14'x19' so I don't have your problems, no matter what there isn't much walking.
    Well, there are 4 vises in every mill for a reason! LOL
    Typically 15~30 minute cycles. Sometimes longer. Occasionally there is no way around the super quick operation that will keep a guy tied to a machine.
    And, the actual physical location of a machine will sometimes dictate what job goes in it.
    But, for the next 3 or so months at least, the middle VF2 and the new VF2 will have 4'ths in them. And, those cycles are pretty long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Odd to hear you say that - TH400s are pretty much indestructible if prepped properly (including an SFI case if needed), and there are tons of aftermarket gear sets for them. 2.10 is a really popular option to give a better 1/2 split. Hell, the new hotness right now are second gear leave and 2-speed TH400s.

    Other than being heavy, they really don't have downsides that haven't been fixed by the aftermarket.

    If you really want indestructible, go to a Lenco with a Bruno drive!

    BTW great seeing the workload through the shop on Instagram!
    Put a Cummins in front of a TH400 or a 4L80E (ODTH400). You can shred it's guts out before you leave the driveway if you try. I'm not just a backyard guy talking shit about this. Been there more times than I can count with every dollar you can throw at big name trans builders trying to make them work. They suck at handling torque.

    A Dodge RH or RE variant is not very great when it leaves dodge, but take the time to go through it correctly (firm up shifts) and it will handle absolutely anything you can throw at it. full locked 3-4 shifts with twins and towing. And it will do that for a hundred thousand or more.

    IMO, the best quality of the TH400/4L80E's is parts are dirt cheap and they made a ton of them. Just don't put 600 lb/ft through one of them cuz it won't go through it. It'll end up in the cornflakes and glitter in the pan.

    On shop layout, I made dozens of cad layouts that didn't work. I ended up just moving things again and again and again over a week until I found the magic layout.

    I don't know if you need it or not, but I find a have to have a big open area inside a big door for "flex space" that I can use for whatever then clean it up to bare floor when I'm done. I built a big shop and had like 15' by 15' of open area and I was pretty pissed because it wasn't enough space to do anything. Couldn't even turn the forklift around in it. After that week of tetrissing the machines I was able to get more space around everything and get 30 by 35' wide open area inside my door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Put a Cummins in front of a TH400 or a 4L80E (ODTH400). You can shred it's guts out before you leave the driveway if you try. I'm not just a backyard guy talking shit about this. Been there more times than I can count with every dollar you can throw at big name trans builders trying to make them work. They suck at handling torque.

    A Dodge RH or RE variant is not very great when it leaves dodge, but take the time to go through it correctly (firm up shifts) and it will handle absolutely anything you can throw at it. full locked 3-4 shifts with twins and towing. And it will do that for a hundred thousand or more.

    IMO, the best quality of the TH400/4L80E's is parts are dirt cheap and they made a ton of them. Just don't put 600 lb/ft through one of them cuz it won't go through it. It'll end up in the cornflakes and glitter in the pan.

    On shop layout, I made dozens of cad layouts that didn't work. I ended up just moving things again and again and again over a week until I found the magic layout.

    I don't know if you need it or not, but I find a have to have a big open area inside a big door for "flex space" that I can use for whatever then clean it up to bare floor when I'm done. I built a big shop and had like 15' by 15' of open area and I was pretty pissed because it wasn't enough space to do anything. Couldn't even turn the forklift around in it. After that week of tetrissing the machines I was able to get more space around everything and get 30 by 35' wide open area inside my door.
    That is pretty much what I was saying about TH400's LOL!
    Dodge tranny's get a bad rap. But, if ever there was an un-justified bad-rap? That is it! Like you said, the 48RE is very strong. And, not far removed from a 727.
    I think it is very, very funny, that: Cummins guys all rejoiced when Dodge introduced the 68RFE.
    Now, a few years later, there is a big market for swapping a 48RE in place of the 68RFE! So ironically funny!

    And, yea, there is a "flex space". The area just inside the 12ft wide roll-up (bottom left).
    And, pretty much everything that is not a machine-tool is on casters.

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    Any reason not to turn the BFH 90 degrees, so the front faces the VF2s and move the tool building station? The pallet station would then be near the Brother loading station and the HAAS controls would all be facing eachother. I don't like the pallet station against the wall and the control facing towards the rear of the shop. Where possible you should combine "keepout" areas among machines to save space; one machine's keepout is occupying another machine's keepout. The proposed BFH location should also reduce your electrical costs because it's closer to the original location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    Any reason not to turn the BFH 90 degrees, so the front faces the VF2s and move the tool building station? The pallet station would then be near the Brother loading station and the HAAS controls would all be facing eachother. I don't like the pallet station against the wall and the control facing towards the rear of the shop. Where possible you should combine "keepout" areas among machines to save space; one machine's keepout is occupying another machine's keepout. The proposed BFH location should also reduce your electrical costs because it's closer to the original location.
    The only reason I don't like that is: After I leave enough room to walk between the BFH control and the VF2 table, the BFH is blocking half the 12' door. That is the main door I use for everything. It is bad enough the pallet rack is going to block over a foot of that entrance. The BFH electrical cabinet would block about 4 feet. I need to have one large open space. And, that is it.

    I'll flip it down there tomorrow morning when I get back out to the shop, and get real dimensions. If it doesn't block the door, it could work. But, if it blocks the door, it is a no go. It would not only be cheaper to run power. It would be way easier! The uni-strut is pretty busy in one spot in particular. And I have not thought of a good solution for that issue yet that wouldn't look hack. In that position, I would totally avoid having to deal with that issue.

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    Perry, it would only leave just shy of 7ft between the back of the BFH, and the manual mill. Not wide enough.
    And, then the space where the BFH was sitting becomes a big open wasted space with crappy access.
    I am trying to keep the "dirty area" away from the machines, and at the bay door.
    Occasionally I have a fab project. And, I want a decent amount of space. For example: the stand I built for the band-saw.
    That would have been a huge pain in the ass to build in a 7ft wide area. My big steel table is 4.5 x 5.5
    And, that is where it lives. I wouldn't even be able to walk around it.

    I wasn't kidding earlier when I said I've spent about 20 hours playing Tetris, LOL
    I have even completely disregarded the existing power situation. And, tried laying it all out as if I was starting from scratch.
    I wish there was a magic solution that "worked" better! But, in this space, with the things I can't change (doors), I can't figure out anything better.

    Another thing to consider: the BFH's days are numbered. It might be next month? It might be two years? But, it is not a keeper.
    And, an Okuma Genos M560 backs right in that spot nicely! (I've already measured it up, LOL).

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    New equipment day.
    Very happily, after the freakin' debacle that was my last rotary purchase (that went to shit):
    This one showed up in brand-new condition. Just like the pictures depicted.

    8accc537-5777-41a3-b2db-eb76d4ef7d60.jpg

    As a matter of fact, the land where the clamping nuts would reside show no evidence of ever having had nuts spun down on them.

    d063df51-9066-4247-8040-d542d712cbae.jpg

    And, I am pretty sure that is 14yr/old cosmoline on there straight from haas.
    Now, I kind of knew this already. After closely reviewing the pics, I inquired, and the salesman told me:
    "I can't really tell you it is new. But, I can tell you we acquired these units from haas as surplus."
    I however trust no salesman. Until you put your hands on it, you never know. Well, now I know.
    I had to do a little playing around with the grid-shift to get it to zero. But, once that was dialed, had no issues.
    I wrote a little program and let it run on loop for a while to at least let the lube distribute with no load after sitting for years.
    The brake was a little noisy. I squirted some silicone spray in the air-line in an effort to give the O-rings a fighting chance.
    Got a seemingly brand-new unit, for significantly less than half worn out units go for. Today was a good day!

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    that new haas coming south from the land o' Lincoln?

    have you looked at the next step down the road about blowing one of the walls out and adding space!? i'm turning into the same issue got 4 spindles in a 40' x 20' space and there is just not a stellar way to ideally set everything up except....more space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ducesrwld View Post
    that new haas coming south from the land o' Lincoln?

    have you looked at the next step down the road about blowing one of the walls out and adding space!? i'm turning into the same issue got 4 spindles in a 40' x 20' space and there is just not a stellar way to ideally set everything up except....more space.
    Yea, the "small shop struggle" is real, huh!
    "Land o' Lincoln"? You mean Illinois? YEP! Only guy selling haas machines that I trust! LOL

    I got plans for at least an office off the back of the shop. I loose my desk spot when I rearrange. And, don't have a place for it.
    Not sure what I'm going to do until I get an office built?
    But, I am starting to consider going all the way across the back of the shop. The proposed office is only 10ft wide, 12ft deep.
    That stupid fucking window by the rear man-door (you can see it in the pic showing the coolant station) will become the entrance to the office.
    The door will large enough for me to get the big surface plate in there without having to tip the damn thing on its side like I had to in the old shop.
    That was a huge PITA! So that small addition will me a makeshift metrology room / office.
    But, I have also considered going 12ft deep, and full width (40ft outside). And, basically giving myself a garage out back off the corner of the big car-port.
    That will get all that kind of stuff out of the shop and free up that space I am trying to leave open. Then maybe the saw could live on the floor! LOL

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  20. #5354
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    Temporarily why not go up?

    I have run out of space, so next step is a mezzanine, Half of the units in my building have either, or are contemplating adding mezzanines. I could get a lot of junk up there plus have an extra office. Obviously I can't expand my square footage like you can, so I have no choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Temporarily why not go up?

    I have run out of space, so next step is a mezzanine, Half of the units in my building have either, or are contemplating adding mezzanines. I could get a lot of junk up there plus have an extra office. Obviously I can't expand my square footage like you can, so I have no choice.
    That has been considered. I definitely have the ceilings for it. It would work good for storage. But, not for an office space.
    No way in hell I am running up/down stairs all day! I mean, yea, I need the exercise. But, fuck that! My right leg is trashed. And, my left knee is not far behind.
    Yea, stairs, that is why I don't go up. If I need storage that bad? I'll just buy another connex. No stairs!
    Besides, I would spend a small fortune building an elevator that could get Pit-Stop up there!
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 01-22-2020 at 08:27 AM. Reason: grammar

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  23. #5356
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    Get an insulated ocean container (or old refer trailer, minus axles) for the office & storage? set it 12' or so from the building and roof the open space. Refer trailers are nice, they already have a side door, wall the inside at the door, front is office and back is storage.

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    Maybe you already saw it or knew them, but I got an email this morning about a shop a couple hours north of you closing in chino valley, maybe they got a few interesting things in there, tools or such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Maybe you already saw it or knew them, but I got an email this morning about a shop a couple hours north of you closing in chino valley, maybe they got a few interesting things in there, tools or such.
    Nope, havent seen anything. Any more info?

    EDIT: nevermind, found it.

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    You don't build an elevator of pitstop - pitstop IS the elevator - and I'm not being silly. My shop is set up with a platform that is easily reached from the ground floor with a forklift. (Code for this is kind of a pain, but it's there and safe.) Everything heavy that goes upstairs goes on a pallet or wheeled cart. Up and down with the forklift. BUT - only one level of storage upstairs (which was built as office space and can't have too much heavy stuff anyway)

    Where this matters practically is that one person (me) can move furniture, office machines, boxes of books, and so forth up and down safely without drama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    You don't build an elevator of pitstop - pitstop IS the elevator - and I'm not being silly.
    I WAS (trying I guess) to be silly.


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