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  1. #5421
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    So, of course, after I stole 6 vises off the big-fat-haas for the brother, the big production job goes back to code-red.
    Meaning, he is selling product way faster than I am making it. Of course we all wish he had a crystal-ball. So, that I could have kept going at an even keel through 2019.
    I wouldn't have dug the hole so much deeper just to keep the doors open. And, he would have had decent inventory for this. Oh-well. Look forward, not backwards.

    These parts are a 2 piece assembly. At full-tilt I was running the more involved part OP's 1&2 in the Brother. They also get a 3/4 OP on the 4th axis in a little haas.
    The less involved part was OP's 1&2 in the big-fat-haas. And, came out finished.
    After the vises went in the Brother he fired the job back up at partial capacity. I am currently running both parts in the Brother. This is great for about 400 assemblies/week.
    He now wants more than double that. It is pretty much end of 2017 all over again. He will take them as fast as I can make them.
    So, it is time to split it back up, and put one of the parts in the big-fat-haas.

    I refuse to remove the vises from the Brother. No effing way! The plan is: park pallets on top of the vises in the Brother.
    This will allow me to fixture the parts exactly as they used to be. 12 parts per pallet (OP1 on one pallet, OP2 on the other). But, what about getting the other part set back up in the big-fat-haas?
    I guess I need more vises, again

    img_1341.jpg

    I'm putting 4 vises/pallet on the haas this time, instead of 5. For: reasons (lots of them). And, I am leaving the aluminum sub-plates off.
    I already have 4 vises on one pallet. I just need to drill/ream/tap the other now. I picked up 8 new vises. All 8 will go in the big-fat-haas.
    That leaves 4 for the little haas's. I can then put two in each VF2 that has a 4th in it. This gives me 4 stations on the rotaries in the Pierson vises.
    And, 4 stations in the two Orange doubles. I have two new parts this will work perfect for!
    Raw stock goes in on the rotab, finished parts come out of the vises. One cycle!
    These are for a new customer. And, projected sales of these parts looks really good. I am already on my 2nd sizable order this year.

    And, I still do that damn family of parts I complain about all the time that really should be done on a 5-axis machine. I don't have 5-axis.
    And, as much as I would like to go there. I don't see me going there in the near future. So, I am going to work them on to the 4th.
    I figure I can knock the 7 operation parts down to 4 ops on the 4th. And, the 5 operation parts down to 3 ops.
    This wont happen fast. It will be a shit-ton of programming on parts that have been programmed for years. But, that is the nature of process improvement I guess.

    All this, and I am trying to prep and get ready to rearrange the whole shop at pretty much the worst time possible

    I'm feeling overwhelmed again. And, quite . But, it sure beats the snot out of last year!

  2. #5422
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    How do you like the new orange vises? I'm so torn as to which route I want to go for the new mori HMC on the way.

    4 orange vise doubles on each tombstone
    12 orange vise delta IV on each tombstones
    or AME Triad rails on tombstones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    How do you like the new orange vises? I'm so torn as to which route I want to go for the new mori HMC on the way.

    4 orange vise doubles on each tombstone
    12 orange vise delta IV on each tombstones
    or AME Triad rails on tombstones.
    I have 18 of them now. I must like them a little anyways.
    Only other doubles I have used were Kurt and Chick. Did not like Kurt doubles at all. They felt dead, no feedback, stiff action.
    Don't like Chicks proprietary jaw systems. I swap jaws, make new jaws, way too often.
    It would be way to expensive to stock Chick's jaws. And, I have zero interest in making raw jaws. My spindles need to make paying parts. Not jaws.

    Kind of depends on the parts going through the machine.
    If its just random job-shop stuff, and you never really know exactly what shape part is coming? Kind of hard to beat a plain old vise!
    Some of that other stuff can be pretty limited and not very "universal".
    Sometimes part swapping time matters as well. Again, almost impossible to swap two parts as fast as can be swapped in a double station vise.
    Sure fixtures loaded with parts is awesome (I do it sometimes). But, it has to be justifiable. A good vise can pretty much do it ALL.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 02-20-2020 at 03:21 PM.

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    Im with you on the chicks. They do have the best feel out of all the vises I've personally used and their jaws are really fast to use but...like you said they are expensive and I'm personally sick of buying them.

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    Wheelie what size (length)orange double vises do you have on your vf2's? I think you said you had 4 on there also.
    I was looking for one of your pics that showed how you clamped them down as well and just couldnt find them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    Wheelie what size (length)orange double vises do you have on your vf2's? I think you said you had 4 on there also.
    I was looking for one of your pics that showed how you clamped them down as well and just couldnt find them.
    2nd that.....................I'm gonna throw two of 'em in the ol VF2(and a 5th 22" on the Doosan.).........I'd rather got with the 20". The 17.5" vises just don't have much of an opening...............

    I really like the Orange vises. When you tighten them they feel "right?"..................The Kurt doubles I have are archaic compared the the Oranges.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    Wheelie what size (length)orange double vises do you have on your vf2's? I think you said you had 4 on there also.
    I was looking for one of your pics that showed how you clamped them down as well and just couldnt find them.
    I haven't put Oranges in the 2's yet guys. That is the plan though.
    On a 2 (of my vintage anyways ('04,'05,'06) you can only hang about 1.25" max off the back of the table, and clear the Z way-cover stack.
    This will leave a good bit of the 17.5"s I have hanging off the front. And, would not allow the center hold-down holes to line up with the T-slots.
    I don't think they would line up anyway. 10" C~C on the Oranges vs. 9.562" C~C for the haas T-slots.
    So, I will probably end up using the supplied Orange "chair clamps" on either outside-side of two Oranges. And, a simple strap between them to catch each vise rail.
    That will let me put them as close together as possible. I will hate this more than you can imagine! LOL (I can't stand clamps on the sides of vises)

    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    I really like the Orange vises. When you tighten them they feel "right?"..................The Kurt doubles I have are archaic compared the the Oranges.............
    Exactly why I was willing to give Orange a go in the first place. Kurt doubles suck. They make a great single station. But, their doubles are terrible.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 02-23-2020 at 04:11 PM.

  9. #5428
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I haven't put Oranges in the 2's yet guys. That is the plan though.
    On a 2 (of my vintage anyways ('04,'05,'06) you can only hang about 1.25" max off the back of the table, and clear the Z way-cover stack.
    This will leave a good bit of the 17.5"s I have hanging off the front. And, would not allow the center hold-down holes to line up with the T-slots.
    I don't think they would line up anyway. 10" C~C on the Oranges vs. 9.562" C~C for the haas T-slots.
    So, I will probably end up using the supplied Orange "chair clamps" on either outside-side of two Oranges. And, a simple strap between them to catch each vise rail.
    That will let me put them as close together as possible. I will hate this more than you can imagine! LOL (I can't stand clamps on the sides of vises)
    Thanks thats what I thought, I had my kurt double on the vf2ss when I 1st got it was way to long. I have the same back clearance problems. I might just go singles on the haas and a few doubles on the fadals.

    Thanks Again

  10. #5429
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    Busy Busy! I'm not making parts nearly fast enough. Go figure.
    Workin' on throughput. More vises = more parts!
    Molesting the other pallet on the BFH to hold 4 more Orange doubles:

    img_1354.jpg

    Pay attention big-dummy! You only got one shot fool!

    Ahh, that's a relief!

    img_1357.jpg

    And, my favorite part! Not a clamp in sight!

    img_1358.jpg

    Have I mentioned I hate clamps on the sides of vises?

    Now, in light of the fact that you can no longer bolt a standard style jaw to the center fixed jaw of an Orange double (without spending an extra $150/vise)
    I am waiting for a box of Eric's dove-tail jaws to come red-label tomorrow so I can start all over, and make all new jaws for this job
    I've been curious about dovetail jaws for quite some time. Wasn't planning on diving in now. But, whatever.
    I can tell you I was not a happy fucker when I realized I could not use these vises out of the box! (with my existing jaws)
    Somebody needs to do a little work on his vague website if you ask me. Maybe a disclaimer?
    Its there if you study the pics. I already own 10 of these that I have been very happy with. I did not figure I needed to study the pics.

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    I'm getting ready to place a big order with Eric for 2 tombstones and 26 vises. Really hope I don't regret the decision.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Nice to see things are busy, and hopefully making $ too.
    Are you able to keep the Brother and twin pallet Haas going 16-24hrs a day 7 days a week to get the parts done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Now, in light of the fact that you can no longer bolt a standard style jaw to the center fixed jaw of an Orange double (without spending an extra $150/vise)
    I can tell you I was not a happy fucker when I realized I could not use these vises out of the box! (with my existing jaws)
    Somebody needs to do a little work on his vague website if you ask me. Maybe a disclaimer?
    Its there if you study the pics. I already own 10 of these that I have been very happy with. I did not figure I needed to study the pics.
    Yeah...................same here. Right after I installed my Orange vises I was setting up for a job and was going to cut some soft jaws...................... Need different center jaws carriers...............................Sol needs a little note on his site 'bout that.

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  16. #5433
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    You can fit a 4" Kurt vise pattern into the center hard jaw on an Orange vise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Nice to see things are busy, and hopefully making $ too.
    Are you able to keep the Brother and twin pallet Haas going 16-24hrs a day 7 days a week to get the parts done?
    Would love to! But, that means hiring at least two more people. And, the shop running at times when either I or Joe are not out here. Not happening!
    I do need to bring in one more guy. And, I am very much NOT! looking forward to it.
    Especially when I know, it will slow down again. It is inevitable. And, I can't stand laying people off. I hate that more than anything.

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    Probably safer to just get all the hours in that you can 7 days a week for a little while and see if it holds or not, it probably will slow down. I've been crazy busy here for 3 months(first Qtr will be 1/2 of my best year) and there's more to go but I've had a bad 2008 vibe for a little while so I don't see it keeping this way all year, just stashing cash as fast as I can to get ready for the worse, as much as I hope it won't be for a few years...

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    The CarveSmart guys have done a pretty good job of convincing Orange to standardize on their jaws, eh?

    Orange should offer both standard and CarveSmart jaw carriers for the same price....

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The CarveSmart guys have done a pretty good job of convincing Orange to standardize on their jaws, eh?

    Orange should offer both standard and CarveSmart jaw carriers for the same price....
    Orange dropped Carve-Smart (or they pulled out, I don't know which).
    And, he has his own dovetail system now. My first vises (3yrs old) have the carve-Smart system. But, would also accept a std. bolt-on jaw.
    These new ones I just got are dove-tail only on the center fixed jaw. There are provisions on one side of the slide jaws (reversible) opposite the dove-tail side,
    for a std. bolt-on jaw. So, if using as a single station you could technically use std. jaws.

    Talking to Chris yesterday, I think he said you can swap dove-tailed center fixed jaws for bolt-on at time of purchase.
    But then your dove-tail feature on the slide jaw is kind of worthless. Unless you want to run one bolt-on one dove-tail (WTF?).
    They have bolt-on only slide jaws listed on the website. But, Chris also told me yesterday they are NLA. And, they need to pull them from the site.
    My beef isn't even the fact that soft jaws are now going to cost double+ what I pay for monster-jaws (which rock!).
    It is the surprise, and following day or two of down-time when you realize the fact that the 100's of pairs/sets of jaws you have on the shelf are now basically scrap.
    Most jobs I do, I run at least 4 parts at a time per operation. That is 4 sets of pocketed soft-jaws per operation.
    I have hundreds of pairs/sets of soft-jaws that are still very much relevant. If I want to run those jobs in these vises, I am starting over.

    This is a HUGE investment in time/money. And, has been my argument against switching to dovetail the entire time.
    Everybody is constantly preaching "its faster! its faster!" Well, no fool, not this year it isn't!

    I'll pile up the jaws just for this family of parts later that this switch obsoletes and snap a pic.
    The cost of buying and replacing these jaws isn't the big deal. It is the re-making of them that sucks.
    A lot of times, guys running parts like me don't make any money on jobs until the 2nd or third time they run, because all this work is already done.

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  23. #5438
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Orange dropped Carve-Smart (or they pulled out, I don't know which).
    And, he has his own dovetail system now. My first vises (3yrs old) have the carve-Smart system. But, would also accept a std. bolt-on jaw.
    These new ones I just got are dove-tail only on the center fixed jaw. There are provisions on one side of the slide jaws (reversible) opposite the dove-tail side,
    for a std. bolt-on jaw. So, if using as a single station you could technically use std. jaws.

    Talking to Chris yesterday, I think he said you can swap dove-tailed center fixed jaws for bolt-on at time of purchase.
    But then your dove-tail feature on the slide jaw is kind of worthless. Unless you want to run one bolt-on one dove-tail (WTF?).
    They have bolt-on only slide jaws listed on the website. But, Chris also told me yesterday they are NLA. And, they need to pull them from the site.
    My beef isn't even the fact that soft jaws are now going to cost double+ what I pay for monster-jaws (which rock!).
    It is the surprise, and following day or two of down-time when you realize the fact that the 100's of pairs/sets of jaws you have on the shelf are now basically scrap.
    Most jobs I do, I run at least 4 parts at a time per operation. That is 4 sets of pocketed soft-jaws per operation.
    I have hundreds of pairs/sets of soft-jaws that are still very much relevant. If I want to run those jobs in these vises, I am starting over.

    This is a HUGE investment in time/money. And, has been my argument against switching to dovetail the entire time.
    Everybody is constantly preaching "its faster! its faster!" Well, no fool, not this year it isn't!

    I'll pile up the jaws just for this family of parts later that this switch obsoletes and snap a pic.
    The cost of buying and replacing these jaws isn't the big deal. It is the re-making of them that sucks.
    A lot of times, guys running parts like me don't make any money on jobs until the 2nd or third time they run, because all this work is already done.
    Can you modify the vise bed/carrier somehow to accept your current jaws? Just curious... it doesn't solve the problem of time, but might save some dough...?

    An after thought... why is a dual station $800 more than a single??! Seems like the double would only have a bit more work - drilling/tapping/boring for the center block, and switch the screw for tightening it? I dunno if it is that simple, but it appears so...

  24. #5439
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    My beef isn't even the fact that soft jaws are now going to cost double+ what I pay for monster-jaws (which rock!).
    It is the surprise, and following day or two of down-time when you realize the fact that the 100's of pairs/sets of jaws you have on the shelf are now basically scrap.
    Most jobs I do, I run at least 4 parts at a time per operation. That is 4 sets of pocketed soft-jaws per operation.
    I have hundreds of pairs/sets of soft-jaws that are still very much relevant. If I want to run those jobs in these vises, I am starting over.

    This is a HUGE investment in time/money. And, has been my argument against switching to dovetail the entire time.
    Everybody is constantly preaching "its faster! its faster!" Well, no fool, not this year it isn't!

    I'll pile up the jaws just for this family of parts later that this switch obsoletes and snap a pic.
    The cost of buying and replacing these jaws isn't the big deal. It is the re-making of them that sucks.
    A lot of times, guys running parts like me don't make any money on jobs until the 2nd or third time they run, because all this work is already done.
    Can you make (or buy) dovetail strips and bolt/pin them to the back of your existing jaws to be able so save them? Doing a "production run" of this on all your jaws might be easier than making all new jaws?

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  26. #5440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Can you modify the vise bed/carrier somehow to accept your current jaws? Just curious... it doesn't solve the problem of time, but might save some dough...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Can you make (or buy) dovetail strips and bolt/pin them to the back of your existing jaws to be able so save them? Doing a "production run" of this on all your jaws might be easier than making all new jaws?
    More trouble than its worth guys. That would be even more time consuming, and exceptionally more complicated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    An after thought... why is a dual station $800 more than a single??! Seems like the double would only have a bit more work - drilling/tapping/boring for the center block, and switch the screw for tightening it? I dunno if it is that simple, but it appears so...
    Probably because doubles come with a lot more parts than singles.


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