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  1. #921
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    OK ..... Regarding the "In with the new" machine...

    So I got part approval on our part yesterday and I still need to button up a few loose ends to get running yet.
    One of which was to wire up the chip conveyor.

    I guess that I forgot this, but the conveyor didn't actually "come with" the machine when I got it, but it came in from elsewhere at prox the same time. (was never in this machine before)
    The only job that I have ran on this so far is the tube job from 4 or 5 yrs ago that I have the vid of earlier in this thread.
    I hadn't had coolant in it, and I hadn't ever had the stock tube, nor the conveyor in it before.

    SO - the conveyor isn't exactly plug and play - and to be honest, we kind'a got into the connection hardware on the discharge end of the machine while moving it around as well.

    It wasn't all that bad to git it into place as we rolled it in on 3" bars, but getting it all down on the ground and getting the forks out of it was a challenge.
    My little 8K just barely get's the job done. Actually - we needed to git the 5K under there too to get the 8 out.

    But an-y-how .... the task was getting spark to the conveyor, and I didn't have any juice to the back end, so I went up front to see what I could see...

    So, to predicate the punchline - notice that the machine is of a decent size...

    And that the disconnect is is 7' off the floor, with the handle beyond reach of your average 6' farmer.

    Now notice on the side of the disconnect box that there is another add-on box attached.
    It is reachable, but you can't really see what's what...




    Well this add-on box is an on/off type motor starter (I guess is what'chew'd call it?) but it wasn't acting like I thought that it should, so I got the ladder to git my eyeballs up where they need to be, and this is what I found:

    Doo you see what's laying in the bottom?




    Not that this new info has anything to doo with the unit not working as expected, and with the warrs off and the one heater pulled, I'm guessing that this is more hints to the switch being buggered. Not that there is any nests or anything in there, but still .... COME _ ON! Are you kiddin' me?


    On a side note, we ended up moving in yet another "new" machine, just like the "old" that we moved out a few weeks ago. Same machine, but this one had a different job already set up on it that we needed to run, so we have THAT setting just inside the overhead and I just ran off 8000 parts from it the last few days. Headin' fer heat treat on Monday...

    We've moved a lot of iron in and out of here in just the last few months - and haven't bought anything in years....





    EDIT:

    After playing with the switch a little bit here just now - I got it to work.
    But at first it was stuck ON.
    I'd be shocked to find that it had been touched in the last 15 years!




    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  3. #922
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    OK, it seems that the other two heaters are burnt too, just not as obvious.

    I am sure that I can scare up a set of heaters to put in here, but what I am not figgering out is that I don't see any trip/reset mechanism in here.

    So I'm not understanding the value of an actual "heater" if it's just being used as a fuse?


    Am I missing sumpthing?


    -----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    What's the orange lookin' tab to the right of the "stop" button?

  5. #924
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    It's what once was a "white" tabby that says "ON" and pops out as an indicator when it is switched on.
    Not sure of the value of that?

    After digging out an A/B starter off the shelf, and looking at that, and then looking at this thing - I am guessing that possibly the ON / OFF rocker switch mechanism must be the RESET part, and the TRIP is built into that mechanism somehow?


    I have a unit like this on a parts worsher, but it's never had cause to trip or blow or ... ???
    If it had, I might have some experience in how this thing werks.
    But I've only had the worsher for >20 yrs so ....


    -----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  6. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    What's the orange lookin' tab to the right of the "stop" button?
    My first guess is that is the OL reset.

    Tom

    Edit:- If you look carefully below the word "Stop" you should see the word "reset".

  7. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My first guess is that is the OL reset.

    Tom

    Edit:- If you look carefully below the word "Stop" you should see the word "reset".

    I guess it's possible that if it was actually tripped - that the white tab could have resistance agginst it - and be the RESET?
    But it's an awfully small feature...
    ???

    Nothing below, above, or beside that says RESET on it.

    The other thing that you see hiding in there is another tab that pulls out for lock out/tag out and keeps it from latching in if pulled out.


    HOW-EVER ... I doo have hydro out the bottom now!

    [still not 100% sure about the trip/reset aspect yet]


    ----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Most of those mechanisms work by rocking the bar or pushing it in further. The solder pot ol's have a ratchet wheel on the bottom. when the stop/reset bar is operated, the pawls that bear against the ratchet wheels are turned to reset on the wheel. This also closes the ol contacts.

    Screenshot: ⁨solder pot overload - Google Search

    Tom

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    So, we knocked out 7500 pcs off the big Acme shown above. We are currently running it quite slow. Not sure if we will bump it up, or just let it go as is? As it is - w/o a soft-start we are able to start it while CNC's are running, and as long as they are not ramping up at the time, they don't drop out. Of course the addition of a soft start will solve that issue.... Also - it just sets over there and clicks away quietly (sorta). We ran off all those parts and never even adjusted anything. (I like that!)

    Now expecting/waiting on repeat orders....



    As for "newsed iron" - we are up to 2008, and the timing of this post is interesting as it coincides with a couple of the threads that have been on other boards lately....


    First comes the point of safety, and maybe "safety" isn't the term that I prefer in this case, but more correctly - "understanding risk" maybe? Having all the safety gear on, painted floors with distinct work zones and traffic zones, and buzzers going off all around you may or may not offer much in the name of safety, but always having at least one brain cell - even if it may be clear in the back of a thick skull - on alert for things that can hurt me is always of value.


    Now this story at hand here was not going to pop up on anyone OSHA radar, but ....
    ... and I have shared this a couple of times over the years, but it's been quite some time now ....
    .. and quite honestly - it needs repeated now and aggin for a reminder for all of us.


    So, one day a fella that I had been running some parts for for a year or two now says to me that he needs to order some parts. These parts run on a couple of machines at a former supplier of his, that the owner got hurt and is no longer able to continue the business. "I want you to go buy these machines and get these parts running."

    Oh? OK ....

    As the story goes, and I now know the guy's wife and son, but they had just gotten in two brand new Hardinge CNC lathes. The Hardinge tech was just there and got the machines all set up and some crash course training I am sure. They (and I say "they here as the son was working with him at this time) had never ran CNC lathes before (that I know of). They were a tooling shop, and had a couple of engine lathes, and were known to be VERY talented machinist(s) for sure. But this day his inexperience got him....

    So the father had just chucked up a rather large chunk in the 3 jaw chuck, and was starting on it, watching through the window - likely with his hand on the red button (?) when the part came out of the chuck. Now this part could have went in any of 360 degrees from here, but in this case - it headed to the top of the window where this guy had his head up agginst to watch what was going on.

    The part never came out of the machine. It did damage the door, but I think that's it... However - since it hit the other side of the door with such force, while he had his head up aggin it too, he received a heavy blow to the head. Thus flipping him backwards, only for him to hit the back of his head then on the concrete below.

    He was in the hospital for 1 full year, and then lived 10 more at home, with 24 hr care.
    He just died last year.

    Now I can only speculate as to what the root cause was. Likely either a G0 where a G1 needed to be, or quite possibly he was in G98 and did not have his G50 set? I'm guessing one of those two... Certainly nothing that any of the rest of us with any time under our belts hasn't done at some point. Only thing is that we got lucky and didn't git (overly) hurt the first time that it happened, and likely learned from our mistake(s). This guy simply drew a short straw and didn't get the chance to learn from his mistake.


    OK, so on to the machines:

    These are a pair of Hardinge (Yang) VMCII mills. One is a 2002 600, and the other is a 2004 1000 with a geared head.
    Both units are equipped with 10" Troyke A axi's, Siemens 810D controls, and 20 space umbrella tool changers.

    I was actually looking forward to the new Siemens controls as I was rooting for the man from the West. I had 4 Fanuc controls at the time, and since the Yank's don't really have a control on the market anymore to speak of. (Dynapath, Hurco, Milltronics, and Haas.) But most or captive, and I hadn't seen a Dynapath on someone else's machine OEM since ... ???? 1990? So to think that maybe the Krauts have a good product is intriguing to me.

    I really feel that these mills are built like a brick Shiite house! I love that the rear Y axis way cover is one piece and goes out through the back! And that the rear column supports / mounts are wide enough for that to happen! And with that said - the Y axis rails are NOT close together at all! In fact - they are so far apart that they have a 3rd "1/2 rail" in the middle that has one truck on it - Shirley to help keep the table from getting twisted doo to the trucks all being so far apart from each other.

    I could doo with a real tool changer - ESPECIALLY on a 4x machine!
    And, by now - I am much more a Fanuc guy than I was before!
    Fuji Mtn - don't blow your top anytime soon!


    So anyhow - we went and fetched these mills that were turn key'ed on his parts.

    They didn't have any means to load them there as it was a small place, so I rented a fork-truck from my local rental place, and had them deliver it to the facility with the machines - 5 hours away. I loaded the machines up on their truck, drove the fork-truck back on and headed home. Unloaded the next day. Slick as a whistle!

    Of course the fork-truck folks didn't have any machinery tarps, but they were calling for scattered showers, so I punted. I picked up a retired tarp for a covered wagon, and took along. it offered some protection...





    A while back I posted these pics of a pair of shuttles that I had made back around 2005 for a big/hot job that we had that needed 40" travel and a 4th axis, while I only had a pair of 30" machines. These - well, actually just one of them - had been on the shelf for several years. I cannibalized the 2nd one for the metal - thinking that I likely didn't need to store 2 of them for "future needs". But then I got a job in a cpl years ago that required 4 axis work with 50" travel. Well by now I had a couple of mills with 40" or more travel, but not quite 50". So again - I went to the shelf and pulled down this shuttle to put back into service.








    Now, you need to take the side winders out, and exercise much caution when jogging, or even/especially when HOMEing the machine, or you will crinkle sheet metal!








    Then I recently got some sister tubes in that are 70" long!
    For those I end up taking the "sub-spindle" off, and I built a little tray for the tube to set in, and let it hang out.
    I haft'a break down and turn those parts around for a 2nd opp.



    Now - for the second subject that was related to this - there was a thread recently about a loose warr on a Phase Perfect convertor.

    So I come in one morning and first thing - me and the doggie go out to the field to water the .... volunteer wheat.
    As we're headed back I hear one of these mills beeping.



    Neither one was running!
    I ass_u_med that for whatever reason - the air compressor must'a dropped out and the "low air pressure" alarm was going off.

    But as I came through the door I realized that there was indeed another* possibility!
    There was a farr in the electrical cabinet!
    When one of the warrs burnt through - it lost communication to an encoder or ??? and started fussing.

    I grabbed a fire extinguisher that lived only a few yards away and (as much as I hated to) I just burped the trigger a smidge, and [with the hydro already off now] that was enough to snuff out the cable jacketing.


    Having two sister machines has advantages. The trouble appeared to just be that we caught farr at what looks like a smaller transformer, but Siemens calls a "choke". So we pulled the choke off the other machine and installed in this one, and after cleaning up some wire ends, and cutting out some burnt section(s) of an encoder cable or two that was dangling just above the farr, we were back up and running!


    [pic shows sister choke installed in fire machine]




    All tests that we could doo on the old choke with our little Fluke meter indicated that it was fine too. (???)
    So I ordered up all new terminals and all was fine with the old unit in the other machine.

    We decided that one of the wires had gotten loose in the terminal strip and simply got hot enough to light the jacketing on farr.
    Machine is prox 17 yrs old and copper warrs.


    Post was stripped of several emoticons that I had in place - in hopes of being able to get all the pics in one post....
    Hopefully it goes through!


    ----------------------------

    * 3rd posibility @ 4:08
    Ox

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  11. #929
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    Amen to the safety message. I had a case years ago where a programmer/operator set up a 54-lb chunk of cold rolled in a decent-size slant-bed barely chucking on the end with thrice-used and rewelded steel soft jaws and no tailstock support. The piece was about 10" long. The operator programs a face cut on the end hanging out with constant surface speed turned on and no speed limit. Operator says, "Hey Sergey, come watch this!" Sergey the poor broom pusher comes over and promptly takes a piece of steel in the head, turning him into a vegetable, allegedly with 13 kids.

    The SL-3 window had been replaced with plywood, and the steel came right through it. The plaintiff attorney filed suit against the lathe maker,* saying they failed to warn about replacing windows with plywood!

    I ran a test using our car-crash rail to launch a copy of the steel at a brand new OEM lathe window. The window stayed together but punched right out of the door frame. Being ductile polycarb with thin glass faces, the window wrapped itself around the nose of the projectile and just kept right on going at about 70 mph. Having a brand new window probably would not made a lick of difference in the accident.

    Our machines can spin up way more energy than any practical guard on earth can stop, so be careful out there!

    *Due to Workers Comp laws, there was no point in suing the employer, who, in addition to plywood windows, operated with other machines all beat to h*ll, a dirt floor, and no AC in the hot CA Central Valley.

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    Are there out-of-balance sensor's that could catch that sort of thing?

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Are there out-of-balance sensor's that could catch that sort of thing?

    Tom
    Yes, but not before Elvis has left the building. In other words, by the time the work got loose and unbalanced enough to b detected, no system could stop the spindle in time. The kinetic energy is already in the part when it starts to go off balance, and you'd need a way to get the kinetic energy back out of the part. Moreover, the braking would have to be extremely violent, and may well liberate additional flying stuff. This applies equally to spindle tooling in mills and whipping stock out the back of a lathe headstock.

    Plaintiff attorneys (and their experts) often advance the "but for this 50-cent stock-whipping detector, my client would still be alive" kind of argument, without thinking about the state of the machine and stock when any such sensor would actually sense anything.

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  15. #932
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    So there's a general class of safety devices that help lots, but are not perfect.
    Doors and guards on machine tools is one set (why don't stand in line with the wheel on the surface grinder...)
    Bullet proof vests - even if they stop say a shotgun round, the wearer will still likely have broken ribs or worse.
    Seatbelts - huge reduction in injuries in car crashes for wearing them - but they won't protect the driver or passengers from anything like "all forseeable accidents"

    So, stay on the road and don't crash into things. Don't get shot. Don't stand (or let others stand) in the line of fire of the lathe or grinder, and pay attention to mass and workholding...

    Sadly, this is also like saying "get enough sleep, eat actual food, get regular exercise, don't smoke" - all well proven advice - yet....

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    You could have a control loop that checked the current draw of the spindle at startup and if it exceeded a certain curve of current vs max RPM, it would alarm out.

    That way a missing max CSS RPM would be triggered right at startup. Also, if you set the max CSS, but exceeded the curve, then you'd have to flip some override switch to allow the machine to run the part.

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    By far the most dangerous thing any of us do on a daily basis is drive an automobile.

    I pride myself on being an alert, patient, defensive driver (no accidents in 35 years of driving), but the IDIOTS out on the road today make it a stressful chore.

    I think the internet and smart phones are making our inherent ADD much worse, and this translates into impatient, rushed, careless, and downright stupid driving.

    Stay safe out there....

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  19. #935
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    On the subject of machine tool related safety (not to derail, but):
    I saw one pop up on FB recently. A diesel hot-rod shop (D&J Precision Machine) posted up a pretty nasty one the the other day.
    Seems they had a haas spin a huge fly-cutter up to 12k. Which caused the counter-weight to self-eject. The aftermath is impressive
    The video is definitely worth searching out (I couldn't figure out how to link to it).
    Just find them on FB, and scroll down to May 2nd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    You could have a control loop that checked the current draw of the spindle at startup and if it exceeded a certain curve of current vs max RPM, it would alarm out.

    That way a missing max CSS RPM would be triggered right at startup. Also, if you set the max CSS, but exceeded the curve, then you'd have to flip some override switch to allow the machine to run the part.
    I don't see how that would have prevented the accident I described above. If the part had been chucked properly (deep in some good jaws), the current draw would have been the same, but the part would have been safe to run at CSS. Current draw won't detect stock sticking out the back of a spindle and primed to whip. Current draw won't detect a fat endmill that pulls a plate off of a vacuum fixture and frisbees it out through the enclosure.

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    Neighbor caught this in his barn a cpl days ago:





    ------------------------

    Frankenstein
    Ox

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    frisky coon'possum hybrid?

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    He's such a sweety.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Harrington View Post
    frisky coon'possum hybrid?
    I'm not seeing the ring tail "Coon parts".

    I am seeing the back half of a golden lab.....


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