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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Looks like a unit bearing to me! The wheel bearing goes and it locks up the brakes. Balljoint will wobble like mad, but won't cause the brakes to jamb up.

    Had the exact same thing happen to me TWICE on my 2004 Superduty. Within 15k miles I lost the driver's side twice. The second time it happened it started to grumble getting on the highway and 1/4 mile later I had the same deal as OX. Push it any more and I was going to break stuff to keep moving. They do fail that fast and violent sometimes.

    That inspired me to cut a few apart (like 150 of them) and make my own version of hubs with real bearings (I used Peterbilt wheel bearings). Hopefully get them to market for Dodge, Ford and GM one of these days. Been working through all the little variations between different versions. It's been time consuming to acquire examples of every 8 lug unit bearing front axle made since GM came out with them in 1987.

    Interestingly enough though 8 lug unit bearings used by Dodge, Ford, GM are almost identical.
    HUH?! GM? I've never seen a solid-axle GM with unit bearings. '88 was the first year for IFS 1/2 tons. And, some of the 3/4 ton stuff ran solid-axle through '91 I think?
    But, they were all the normal Dana/Spicer hubs used since the mid '70's.

    EDIT: or are you talking about the 1/2 ton GM's with IFS? Not many of those left, and I wouldn't waste my efforts on an aftermarket solution for that shitty front-end.

  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    HUH?! GM? I've never seen a solid-axle GM with unit bearings. '88 was the first year for IFS 1/2 tons. And, some of the 3/4 ton stuff ran solid-axle through '91 I think?
    But, they were all the normal Dana/Spicer hubs used since the mid '70's.

    EDIT: or are you talking about the 1/2 ton GM's with IFS? Not many of those left, and I wouldn't waste my efforts on an aftermarket solution for that shitty front-end.
    Your 100% right, I skipped some details. When GM came out with their IFS 3/4 and 1 ton 4x4's in 1987 they used unit bearing hubs. When Dodge pickup up unit bearings in 94 they used damn near the exact same bearings. When Ford Superduties came out with unit bearings in 99 they also use just about the same bearings except the Ford ones have a nut that holds them together whereas GM and Dodge rely on the axleshaft.

    Unit bearings are crap because the housing is a one piece race for 2 bearings. Induction hardened, ground and assembled by low bidder.

    I don't really care much about the GM stuff, but the parts are the same so why not?

  3. #1143
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    I got it somewhat apart.
    Only thing holding it on the truck was the brake caliper, and the axle nut to some degree, but the axle's not C clipped, so ... that's not holding much'o nutt'n.

    Once I got the axle nut off, the hub simply fell right off.
    Boy - that sure makes you feel safe going down the road!
    I have no clue how on Earth DOT ever passed that BS!

    On a good note tho - it looks like the used units off of my '06 that I am replacing with the Timken conversions will swap in!
    Not 100% sure, but everything that I can see so far says so, so I can't imagine that they would have 2 this close and not be the same...

    Looking at the used one, I think that I can shoot some grease down the ABS pick-up port.
    I have that dis-abled anyway, and I'm sure that the old cable is sheared off now anyway.
    I may be able to tap it out for 1/8 pipe zerk.

    With that port at 12:00, it's just inviting water to seep in!
    The Timken kit has the ABS sensor outside the grease zone.


    Good luck with your kit.
    Sounds interesting!


    OH! BTW - it looks like I "broke" this bearing, not wore it out.
    I will look at it closer when I git it all apart and on the bench.
    A 900# plow hanging out front can tax that front axle.


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  5. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Unit bearings are crap because the housing is a one piece race for 2 bearings.
    Not only that. The bearings are too close together. This is simple physics. It is like putting a cheater bar (the tire/wheel) on a tiny nut (the bearings).
    In order for those bearings to work at that bearing separation distance? They would need to be 8" in dia. for a 32" tire.

    Yet I have seen king-pin Dana-60 axles with well north of 500k miles that have never been serviced. The separation between the bearings is 3x the distance of unit bearings.
    Then there is the fact that you CAN! service them!

    Unit bearings exist for one reason only: cost of assembly labor. That is the only reason we are saddled with those pieces of shit!

    Now that I typed that I thought of something else! Unit bearings in 4x4 trucks are proof that the EPA is a profit driven organization!
    Please don't elaborate on that. Last thing I want to do is drag politics in to Ox's thread.
    But, if you have even one iota of common sense and mechanical aptitude, you will see exactly where I went with that! (they still use the exact same deal to this day)
    It is all about money boys!

  6. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Unit bearings are crap because the housing is a one piece race for 2 bearings. Induction hardened, ground and assembled by low bidder.
    Point. Bic lighter approach to motor vehicle parts.

    Jaguar gets new tires, it gets new front spindle cartridges, same go. I and run SHORT lived, but uber rain-grippy Conti TrueContacts, retired when "DRS" loses the "S" for snow-rated depth of tread.

    The cartridges are shared with some other Fordieshite, so made in PRC anyway, and have usually been on-sale at under a hundred bucks the pair from Detroit Axle.

    BFD.

    No worry about grease, and they don't last long enough for the studs - or anything else - to rust, either.

    I JFDWT, glad that on an all-aluminum chassis, half-plastic 4.2, near-as-dammit the only thing as can rust are the brake rotors, steel suspension boxes and control rods.

    Doesn't take much time nor paint to keep THOSE sweet, so if I give up driving for my 90th B'Day - as Mum did - the 2005 should easily last me to 2035.

  7. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Not only that. The bearings are too close together. This is simple physics. It is like putting a cheater bar (the tire/wheel) on a tiny nut (the bearings).
    In order for those bearings to work at that bearing separation distance? They would need to be 8" in dia. for a 32" tire.

    Yet I have seen king-pin Dana-60 axles with well north of 500k miles that have never been serviced. The separation between the bearings is 3x the distance of unit bearings.
    Then there is the fact that you CAN! service them!

    Unit bearings exist for one reason only: cost of assembly labor. That is the only reason we are saddled with those pieces of shit!

    Now that I typed that I thought of something else! Unit bearings in 4x4 trucks are proof that the EPA is a profit driven organization!
    Please don't elaborate on that. Last thing I want to do is drag politics in to Ox's thread.
    But, if you have even one iota of common sense and mechanical aptitude, you will see exactly where I went with that! (they still use the exact same deal to this day)
    It is all about money boys!
    I do understand exactly where you're coming from.

    So basically, when that second hub of mine let loose and happened without any warning, no chance to get home, I strongly considered buying a spin-free kit while I was changing the hub on the side of the highway. I had the kit in the shopping cart and ready to buy, but I just couldn't do it. I couldn't justify spending that money and I also really didn't like the idea of putting 35 spline "upgrade" axles in my front end. I use 4x4 every-single-morning and I have beat on my Superduty in 4 wheel drive and never ever felt like I needed more than the stock 30 spline axles offered me. What I did not want was for the stub axle bearing to fail while I was out of state in BFE nowhere and strand me because I had some stupid "upgrade" axle in my front end.

    I took the hubs apart and I thought exactly the same thing- Damn these bearings are close together! On the other hand, they aren't small. The bearings inside the unit bearing are a little bigger than the size of the big bearing in the old style 60 front hubs. So I modeled it all up and saw there was no room to move the bearings further apart. I looked up the specs of same size tapered bearings and those bearings are good for about 12,000 lbs dynamic load each. I looked at where there was real estate to change anything and realized there was an opportunity to go bigger diameter. Much much bigger in diameter. I had a bearing kit for a ZF 6 speed sitting on the shelf. The ZF6 input bearing is pretty large. About the right size to fit, but that bearing is not very affordable so I searched to find similar size bearings that were more common and easy to get. Class 8 truck wheel bearings fit the bill perfectly. The largest bearings that fit are about 35,000 lbs dynamic load.

    I figured out a way to put real lip seals in it and make it serviceable while fitting in the same space as the old unit bearing. My goal is to retail them for the same price as OEM unit bearings from the dealer, so like $800-$1000 a pair. If I had that option when I was on side of the road I'd have bought them in a heartbeat, but $2500 all-in for the alternative doesn't make sense for my daily driver tow rig. Doing it this way I could also put Superduty lockouts on a Dodge and you'd just have to buy a pair of locking hubs. You would use the Dodge inner axles with Ford outer axles.

    Stock unit bearings would be the cheapest option
    My parts would be the "mid-grade"
    Dynatrac/spyntec could hold onto their "premium" product position.

    I have installed lots of free spin kits and installed Ford balljoint 60 knuckles-out on a few 2nd gen dodges. It's not an end of the world problem, but the lockouts do stick out pretty far and the tires move out further. This would negate those things. The Superduty style hub on a Dodge is much cleaner looking.

  8. #1147
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    What is the speed rating for the class 8 bearing?
    This will be spinning 1/2 - 2/3 again faster eh?


    My job didn't turn out real purty.
    The hole was already slightly larger than the 1/8 pipe, but a long way from 1/4.
    I dinked with a reamer and a cpl of taps to get it started and whatnot, but I got it.
    Biggest part of the job is trying to edit the hole w/o getting chips down in the cavity!

    A guy would just need to make a slip fit fitting to insert into the ABS hole to pump it full.
    Lot bigger project than what I did here, but I'm not expecting to use the ABS in the future anyhow.
    But if you did actually make the proper fitting, it could be used be reused many times.
    I doubt that grease would bother the ABS pick-up, doo yuh think?

    This would make greasing them no more of a job than replacing the ABS cable - not that that is easy on a dually!
    But with the amount of grease that I just put in there, I'd say - "greased for life". LOL!


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dscn2622.jpg   dscn2623.jpg   dscn2624.jpg  

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  10. #1148
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    However, even if you can grease the bearings, the life will likely be limited to how much water intrusion you git from a worn out seal.



    Maybe I should'a used the other grease gun that had "CNC" grease in it.
    Made to not mix with water. (coolant)


    ???


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  12. #1149
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    You can buy that easier than making it.

    Front ABS Grease-able Block Off Fitting 99-16 (RDPABS)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    However, even if you can grease the bearings, the life will likely be limited to how much water intrusion you git from a worn out seal.



    Maybe I should'a used the other grease gun that had "CNC" grease in it.
    Made to not mix with water. (coolant)


    ???


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Red Kendall SHP grease is very good at excluding water. We use it in the shop to deal with coolant intrusion under vises and such, it's very good in outdoor equipment for weather resistance, etc. It's good grease all around, good 4 ball results, etc.

  15. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    You can buy that easier than making it.

    Front ABS Grease-able Block Off Fitting 99-16 (RDPABS)

    Well no Schidt?
    Lookie there!




    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  17. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    You can buy that easier than making it.

    Front ABS Grease-able Block Off Fitting 99-16 (RDPABS)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well no Schidt?
    Lookie there!




    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Outa stock though......................sure some else makes em.............

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  19. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    What is the speed rating for the class 8 bearing?
    This will be spinning 1/2 - 2/3 again faster eh?

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    The big bearings have an RPM rating in the thousands of RPM. I'd imagine they'd have a shorter lifespan turning faster, but the difference isn't huge. Pickups have 31-35" tires for the most part. Semi's are around 40". I don't expect spinning 23% faster to lead to failures inside the lifespan of most pickups, but I want to get lots more miles on them to be sure.

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  21. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    They would need to be 8" in dia. for a 32" tire.
    It's not quite that dramatic of a difference. The old style serviceable 1 ton hubs have the bearings about an inch apart. Unit bearings are about 1/2" apart. There's a crush sleeve/abs tone ring between the bearing cones.

    Four reasons why unit bearings came about-
    They are cheaper, saves time on assembly.
    They are preloaded so steering/handling feels a tiny bit tighter.
    The bearing is centered on the braking force. This is a huge one people overlook. New trucks are heavier, have bigger brakes with higher forces. If you have the bearings way out of plane from "lever" of the brake rotor you don't have quite as good braking performance.
    Most mechanics are just parts changers today. Packing wheelbearings and adjusting a nut is not a skill you can bank on people having today.

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  23. #1155
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    I can see how C/L brakes would have less stress on the assembly as a whole past the ball joints, but I am not following how that transfers to "Performin' Ants"?

    And as for the operator - that off-center situation would be the same on both sides, so that shouldn't end up in the steering wheel.

    ???


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I can see how C/L brakes would have less stress on the assembly as a whole past the ball joints, but I am not following how that transfers to "Performin' Ants"?

    And as for the operator - that off-center situation would be the same on both sides, so that shouldn't end up in the steering wheel.

    ???


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Way it was explained to me is that the caliper being on one side puts a fair load on one side of the assembly. The rotor displaces/bends away from that force, position of the bearings has an effect I guess. As the rotor moves/bends it effects how well the pads/calipers grip.

    I don't think it's really something the average guy is going to perceive when driving, but when the OEM's are trying to best their competition for stopping distance with a loaded trailer that kind of stuff effects the numbers.

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  26. #1157
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    Well, after all that, it appears that they are NOT going to swap out...

    Bolt hole patterns all the same.
    Stub Axle broach the same....
    Pilot D going into the axle the same.

    But when you go to assemble, things aren't the same, like the pilot D are not the same for the rotor, but the stud pattern is the same, so the studs could hold it. And the studs are loose in their bore. Since this is a dually and I have to bolt on the extension that never comes off - this is not exactly a major issue, but does show differences.

    But the overall height of the unit seems to differ as well. Not that I have a good one to compare to yet (heading out to fetch one) but near as I can tell - they are maybe 5/8 difference in height, with the '99 being shorter than the '06.

    It looked promising 'till I tried to put it all together.


    Looks like the height difference stems from the rotor mounting on the front of one and the rear of the other.


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    It looked promising 'till I tried to put it all together.
    Sheesh... "puttin' it together"? COVID snow-access shortage must be boring you outta your creative buckeye mind?

    Even so... it ain't as if you had tooken a Thai night Lady back to the rack and found out the "she it" were a lady-boy is it?



    Git you a 2004-2009 Jaguar all-aluminum XJ8-L.

    Cut it up and stretch it about a foot. Save the two 12-way front seats on Connolley-hides leathers.

    Open 'er backside up. Put in an all 'loominum tee-plate deck over 'loominum extrusion re-infrogments.

    Make yerself a go-fetch pickup that won't ROT right TF off the top of the suspension in the Ohio Salt belt.

    NOW you have a "playtoy" for haulin' snow-madness scooters to the Great North Woods in high style. Bypass the OEM US-market 151 MPH governator programming, and track speeds were around 172 MPH "nominally aspirated" Way faster yet single-axle blower. "Twin screw" supercharged version simply obscene for a de facto limousine..

    That should keep yah outta the pubs and brothels?

    Cheatin' to start with a used 'loominum BENTLEY, Audi, or Vee Dubyah "Phaeton" and a "W-12" mill. Worser to start with a "loominum framed 8-71 wore-out fast grey-dog BUS!

    DOUBLE cheatin' to paint it BLUE and put Travis McGee style "MSAGNES" vanity plates on her.

    Could was I'll hit 85 years of age before I actually think it is a better IDEA than.. pubs and brothels?

    First hand experience or never..


  28. #1159
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    I'm much more likely to fetch a '75 F250 High Boy, drop a 460 in it, and 38.5's under it.

    Or, if I was a body man, I would go for a post war Power Wagon and set it on a GenII Cummins chassis.
    Flat bed dually.

    That would make a great 8-9 month/year delivery truck!

    Otherwise, a nice Carry-All would be OK too I s'pose.

    I wouldn't have any use for a Jag, although I think my neighbor gurl has one now.
    I hear those don't corner well, and while I'd much more likely have a 63 - 67 Vette [than a Jag] Private Malone can't keep you out of trouble with those either.

    So maybe I'll jist stick to things with New Process products under them?


    ----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  30. #1160
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    Salute to Private Malone! (and thanks to David Ball for the story)

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