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  1. #181
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    I see that they have a mandrel in theirs.

    If the mandrel D is bigger than the reduction (?) will the machine not like it - or will it lengthen the part?


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Glad to have you back. I really like the rotary swedgeing post. I had a Franklin in a dirt late model about 35 years ago. Speaking of copies Halibrand was around before Franklin......
    The Halibrand and the CAE copy had 12 bolts equally spaced around the case for the side plates, with a one-piece open rotating axle tube passing thru each side. The Frankland (then Winters, and now Bulldog, Tiger, etc) was similar in that it utilized the same Ford truck ring gear, but it has 11 bolts spaced so as to be able to install it between two left halves of the '38-'52 Ford or Studebaker 3/4 or 1-ton full-floating truck axle. No open tube, but individual floating splined axle shafts with drive plates. Heavy as hell, but it was for stock cars rather than sprints or champ cars, and you could go to the junkyard for parts, including the skeins (now known as "wide 5" hubs). Frankland's first center sections in the late 40s were actually cast iron (!) and used the smaller car ring gear and axle housings which were a lot lighter than truck housings. But, you had to install the floater spindles from a truck. Halibrand made those too, only from mag. They were called "V8" rears, after the Ford car. Their quick-change gears were 6-spline instead of the familiar 10-spline. The last ones were used in Midgets. I think they are now antiques.

    Sorry, exhaustive old-timer shit...
    Last edited by Oldwrench; 05-24-2019 at 11:56 AM.

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  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I see that they have a mandrel in theirs.If the mandrel D is bigger than the reduction (?) will the machine not like it - or will it lengthen the part?
    Mandrel swaging is usually done in a different type of machine, usually with four dies striking in alternating pairs. You can theoretically do it in a standard two-die machine but it you have to treat the piece as solid, which reduces the machine's safe capacity. Four-die swagers are usually the non-rotating type which allows swaging the part in the middle as well as swaging shapes other than round. Different animal from plain ole endworking.

    In any form of rotary swaging, most of the deformation goes into increasing the wall, while a smaller proportion goes into lengthening. As an example, a reduction with a taper 3 inches long on an 1-1/4 OD extrudes it about 3/8 and a ten-inch taper lengthens it more like a full inch.

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  6. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvairwerks View Post
    How are multi-step swages done? Is it done in a single die set, or multiple dies, with annealing between passes? I've got some control rods that someday will be need to be recreated, and any of them have 2 or 3 steps on each end, rather than a single step.
    You can do multiple steps easily just by changing dies. Another use of multiple dies is to make a longer taper than could be made with one die set. The die tapers have to match though, so the result will blend.

    A classic use of a swager is to make heavy wall tubing from thinner wall by passing it all the way through the dies and out the other end of the spindle. We've done this on occasion but just to make short lengths.

  7. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip_maker View Post
    Didn't know unsprung weight was important on swaging machine parts too .

    I knew that name sounded familiar. The Fenn factory is located in East Berlin, Ct. About 10 miles away from me.

    Didn't know that they were still making machines.

    Found a video link on their website, showing the process, pretty neat.

    YouTube
    Yep, that's it all right. Notice the abrupt reduction, necessitating a powered feed. Feed rate and elapsed time is pretty standard, mostly you control the rate so as to get a nice finish. Too fast and it will take too big a bite and crush or crack the work. Big nasty loud mess like crashing a CNC.

  8. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    As a teenager in the '70's I hung around a couple Speed Shops. There was this paper called National Parts Peddler, and it was filled
    with ads from racing parts and racing tool suppliers. Also had classifieds in the back. My impression was that a lot of these suppliers were job shops with racer owners. You'd see one supplier with a 1/2 page ad announcing their latest invention or better go-fast part. Within a few months, or maybe over the next winter, the next supplier would be out with their ad, and their copied and "improved" version (always priced cheaper). And maybe even wording in the ad hinting at slamming the other supplier. I always found it interesting and a bit off the wall.
    Yeah, the Parts Peddler. BTDT.

    Corky would trade ad space for product, which he would then auction off at his big (unheated) trade show at the Fairgrounds in Syracuse—artificially lowering the de facto price of said product and totally whoring up the market your advertising was supposedly targeting in his paper. Got off that merry-go-round circa 1983.

    Oh, the memories. I feel like Archie Bunker singing "Those Were the Days..."

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  10. #187
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    I remember the Frankland catalog with a picture of Dick Trickle's Mustang on the cover. I used to buy spindles and floater rear ends from Chester Brothers Racing Products in Chicago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    I remember the Frankland catalog with a picture of Dick Trickle's Mustang on the cover. I used to buy spindles and floater rear ends from Chester Brothers Racing Products in Chicago.
    For years Jim Frankland would go around and collect cash from the resellers of his products (what you might call the "bagman" business model). It meant a lot of transactions off the books, and that eventually landed him in prison for tax evasion. The judge expressed reluctance at sentencing him because of his age but he still did time. I never heard how he got caught, possibly a competitor dropped a dime because Frankland wouldn't farm out any work. That seemed unfair to a certain somebody and basically forced him to start copying the rear end and marketing his own. That's not rumor, I got it years ago from the certain somebody.

  12. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    For years Jim Frankland would go around and collect cash from the resellers of his products (what you might call the "bagman" business model). It meant a lot of transactions off the books, and that eventually landed him in prison for tax evasion. The judge expressed reluctance at sentencing him because of his age but he still did time. I never heard how he got caught, possibly a competitor dropped a dime because Frankland wouldn't farm out any work. That seemed unfair to a certain somebody and basically forced him to start copying the rear end and marketing his own. That's not rumor, I got it years ago from the certain somebody.
    The IRS

    Here is the problem if you are playing games with taxes

    Somebody ELSE gets audited.

    Damn well however I pay you, it is on my books. I am not paying your taxes


    I get audited for one reason or another, it shows I paid you 10k last year.

    IRS gets curious and sends an auditor to you, and you better have that 10k on your books.

    Sometimes I think it is lucky my business evolved with corporate customers and company checks, no real ability to play games

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  14. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Yeah, the Parts Peddler. BTDT.

    Corky would trade ad space for product, which he would then auction off at his big (unheated) trade show at the Fairgrounds in Syracuse—artificially lowering the de facto price of said product and totally whoring up the market your advertising was supposedly targeting in his paper. Got off that merry-go-round circa 1983.

    Oh, the memories. I feel like Archie Bunker singing "Those Were the Days..."
    Corky was a character for sure. Still at it up until about 2015, when "someone stole the show away from him" according to his now defunct website.

    Glad to hear the background on QC components and where they evolved from.

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  16. #191
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    Oldwrench: Thanks for the explanation. It will be interesting when it comes time to make these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cvairwerks View Post
    Oldwrench: Thanks for the explanation. It will be interesting when it comes time to make these.
    If your handle "Cast Iron" means you can make a swager, that might be an emerging opportunity as reshoring continues!

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    Default New Machine Day

    Four Barber-Colman #6-10 gear hobbers arrived this morning, they are now in place awaiting the electricians to attach cords and plugs. The spindle noses are missing, they had taken them off at the dealer's shop to clean the machines, and apparently they're still there. But pretty nice cleanup—cleaning only, no painting. Already 480V, no transformers needed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails b-c-610s-truck-1.jpg   b-c-610s-truck-2.jpg  

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    Hobbers set in place. Now our old #610s are embarrassed and will have to be cleaned...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails b-c-610s-place.jpg  

  20. #195
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    Bringing work in-house?

    That's a LOT of new/same capacity!
    Maybe they will all be set up for a different / similar job?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    If your handle "Cast Iron" means you can make a swager, that might be an emerging opportunity as reshoring continues!
    LOL...even though I'm a 5th gen metals guy, I rate barely above a hack compared to most people here. I'm bringing as much capability in house as I can for my retirement restoration shop, as when you aircraft and machining to job shops, they go apoplectic and the door slams in a hurry. I have a couple of shops that would do my machine work, but they are constantly booked as much as 18 months out for shop time. The better I'm equipped in house, the more interesting aircraft restorations I can work on.

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  23. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Bringing work in-house?

    That's a LOT of new/same capacity!
    Maybe they will all be set up for a different / similar job?
    It's always been in-house; the magazine ad is from 2013.
    A contract to produce some of these gears in pretty fair quantities over the next several years is looming, and we'd need to keep four pinion sizes in constant setup, if not constant production. Even if that doesn't make it to signing, our older #6-10s just have too many parts in their pipelines right now.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pinions.jpg  

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  25. #198
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    Default Another New Machine Day

    These two Hyundai Wia TCs were bought for 1st and 2nd op on our steering control valves. I miscalculated their size, assuming incorrectly that the "160" in the model number, aside from chuck diameter, referred also to the machine frame. Wrong. It's the letter in the model number.

    I had based our floor rearrangement on receiving two much smaller E160s. Once the metal crates were opened and we saw the dimensions there was a lot of prybar shoving to stay ahead of the riggers. Then they turned out to be high enough on the skates that they interfered with the busway by about 1/4 inch. I couldn't watch that part.

    My other F*up was to have ordered 15kVA transformers based on the nameplate HP of our existing E160, when these need 30kVA transformers. Fortunately the electricians had a couple left over from some canceled project and they gave me a smokin' deal. So all is well, the busway survived unbent, and the dealer's guy is leveling up and wiping off Cosmo as I type.

    These are the two machines I needed thru-coolant help with in the CNC Machining sub. All is well there, too, as they have trick ID toolholder blocks that apparently come with any machine ordered with the 290PSI pump. As they say, all's well that ends well. I'm gonna see how Kyocera cermets perform at 6000rpm.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hyundai-wia-l160s.jpg  

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  27. #199
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    That it awesome, T. Really happy for you!! You are really raising the bar for Dirty Old Farts!



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    Thank you. Yesterday we signed a 3-year contract as the exclusive supplier of power steering racks for the next generation of Cup cars, which will be mandatory starting with the '21 season. For those unaware, NASCAR has never permitted rack and pinion steering in Cup, Xfinity or Truck. They've had to use the Delphi steering box, which hasn't been in road automobiles for decades and makes for less than optimal geometry as well as sluggish steering response compared to other types of race cars (such as GT road racers or dirt Late Models). This completely new car involved a competitive process to determine who was best equipped from a capability and experience position to design and build their new steering (among all the other components, right down to the wheels).

    I haven't been able to talk about it until now. A few weeks ago at the test at Richmond, NASCAR put a picture of the test car on their Facebook page, so secrecy is obviously no longer in effect except for the actual technical details. Anyway, we knew making that volume of parts without inconveniencing any of our existing clients was going to necessitate some additional production equipment, hence the recent New Machine Days.

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