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Thread: .050r max

  1. #21
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    Lots of good answers I learn from.

    I "agree" that anything less than the spec is a smaller radii,
    but is ALSO agree that sharp corners are not radiused,
    and where radii is specified a sharp corner may be a bad idea.

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    Is a .0005 (inch) radius a radius or a sharp corner?
    Can you machine or make a zero inside corner?

    Do you have prints that call out a .002/.003 radius and can you measure and hold such?
    Some would think this to be a sharp corner.
    Bob

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    there is an aerospace customer whom I'm sure many have had the displeasure of working with, who routinely calls out fillets of r.007 +/- .002. And yes, they will reject it if it's .004 or .010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    there is an aerospace customer whom I'm sure many have had the displeasure of working with, who routinely calls out fillets of r.007 +/- .002. And yes, they will reject it if it's .004 or .010
    Gaurn f'ing teed that's SpaceX. (or maybe Blue Origin)

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    OP has not specified if this is an external corner or inside corner. Also, is this a specific note on a corner, or is this in the general notes or title block.

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    I don't buy the argument that a sharp corner is unacceptable because stating a maximum radius indicates a radius is desired. That is a bit like saying zero TIR is unacceptable if a maximum TIR is stated on a drawing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    I don't buy the argument that a sharp corner is unacceptable because stating a maximum radius indicates a radius is desired. That is a bit like saying zero TIR is unacceptable if a maximum TIR is stated on a drawing.
    Would you send with a sharp corner just to see what happens?

    These situations are for theoretical discussions and not real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Would you send with a sharp corner just to see what happens?
    Most certainly I would ship a .006/.008 corner if that was what my process produced and have done so across thousands of parts and many years.
    The max rad spec. being .060 but that's close to the OPs.
    Nice to have the room but I don't need it and there is no reason to use it.
    Sometimes we will let it go up to .012 but that's sort of sloppy work. It does save a wheel dress.
    The max .060 is a point where the tool I make hits on the heel. This is the bad number you must stay shy from.

    Similar thing in mating parts, you have to below the break on the other guy.
    Bob

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    With the possible limits to actual manufacturing capabilities and possibilities notwithstanding, can someone please point to a document standard
    where it is explicitly explained that R0 is not a valid dimension?

    'Cos from where I stand, a callout of R.05-MAX means anything between 0 and .05 Radius, AND including 0 and .05 Radius is acceptable.

    Similarly, if you see a callout stating "Break Edge .005-Max" does not mean you have to have an edge break!

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    I take .05R MAX to mean the designer expects some radius but doesn't want it larger than .05, however, you could make him buy a .00R if that's what you gave him. A better callout might be .01-.05R

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    My approach is that if I'm in doubt as to what the customer means or wants I ask.

    I don't want guesswork for what I order and I can't imagine my customers do either.

    When I have a supplier that asks a question before proceeding then at least I know my order is being given thought. I don't need a supplier taking a guess or a chance.

    Often what I regard as being obvious on a drawing or order isn't as obvious as I thought it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFrank View Post
    I take .05R MAX to mean the designer expects some radius but doesn't want it larger than .05, however, you could make him buy a .00R if that's what you gave him. A better callout might be .01-.05R
    See, that's why some stuff gets confusing.
    I for one see that kind of callout completely opposite, meaning he wants it sharp, but can live with a radius up-to .05.

    Better example would be the very part I'm making right now: Sharp Corner R.003 Max.
    I happen to know the intent, it is a nipple-lip which gets pushed into a plastic tube and they want it to stay there by biting into the material, so no radius
    is best, but no burrs.

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    As mentioned before if this drawing is per a standard, those rules are the contractual requirement.
    But we are left to guess as the OP is MIA

    The most common drawing standards in the U.S. are ANSI y14.5 or ASME 14.5

    ASME 14.5 2009 definition below: The surface can be a partial radius, a ellipse, chamfer, sharp corner etc. as long as the part surface does not violate the tolerance zone.

    2.15.1 Radius Tolerance
    A radius symbol, R, creates a zone defined by two arcs
    (the minimum and maximum radii). The part surface
    must lie within this zone. See Fig. 2-22.

    A CR is sometimes mistaken for the more common R callout.

    2.15.2 Controlled Radius Tolerance
    A controlled radius symbol, CR, creates a tolerance
    zone defined by two arcs (the minimum and maximum
    radii) that are tangent to the adjacent surfaces. Where
    a controlled radius is specified, the part contour within
    the crescent-shaped tolerance zone must be a fair curve
    without reversals.

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    Serious question.

    When an issue like this crops up why do some of you seem horrified (OK reluctant might be a better word) at the thought of contacting your customer to clear things up?

    I've found many times (and it goes both ways - customer/supplier and vice versa) that it adds a personal touch and shows you are paying attention and thinking.

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    Some of this is industry specific and previous experience comes into play. I've dealt with callouts just like this.

    Generally for aerospace parts sharp corners are a no-no. The designers expect some kind of radius but instead of limiting the shop to a single size of insert or endmill corner they'll accept anything up to .05R depending on inserts/endmills available.

    At the other end of the spectrum I've seen things like .040R -.000/+.002 called out meaning a special ground tool and an almost impossible part to make consistently. Those are the guys that get the phone call asking if that's really necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Serious question.

    When an issue like this crops up why do some of you seem horrified (OK reluctant might be a better word) at the thought of contacting your customer to clear things up?
    If your dealing with a typical aerospace customer, the engineers will get quite offended by some "Shop Idiot" asking for clarification. It will take 3-4 months to get a revised print, and they will always change the callout to something inane. In this case, it would probably go from .05r max to .043r +/- .002.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    If your dealing with a typical aerospace customer, the engineers will get quite offended by some "Shop Idiot" asking for clarification. It will take 3-4 months to get a revised print, and they will always change the callout to something inane. In this case, it would probably go from .05r max to .043r +/- .002.
    If you're even remotely serious then you must have known some very stupidly arrogant aerospace engineers. Might be you as I've worked often with aerospace companies and never had a problem. They do have special requirements that at times seem "overkill" but as I fly regularly I like to think they know what they're doing.

    What or who is a "Shop Idiot" in your experience?

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    Gordon ( and I am NOT trying to be confrontational here ).

    Larry speaks of EXACTLY what is going on in not only the aerospace world, but most other larger organizations.
    Unless your product is holding up production, or heaven forbid grounding a fleet of ... well whatever equipment, you ain't gonna talk with the engineer.

    You may have been dealing with them in some other capacity, but those of us who actually bring their designs into reality, we are either blacksmiths or plane-jane Shop Idiots.

    In the case of the OP with the R.050 Max callout, you will not get past the parking lot, let alone the front door when asking for clarification.
    You will be waived off with a simple:

    There is no ambiguity in the definition.
    Manufacture part as-specified on supplied document.



    Hell, they might even have a rubber stamp with those exact words!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Gordon ( and I am NOT trying to be confrontational here ).

    Larry speaks of EXACTLY what is going on in not only the aerospace world, but most other larger organizations.
    Unless your product is holding up production, or heaven forbid grounding a fleet of ... well whatever equipment, you ain't gonna talk with the engineer.

    You may have been dealing with them in some other capacity, but those of us who actually bring their designs into reality, we are either blacksmiths or plane-jane Shop Idiots.

    In the case of the OP with the R.050 Max callout, you will not get past the parking lot, let alone the front door when asking for clarification.
    You will be waived off with a simple:

    There is no ambiguity in the definition.
    Manufacture part as-specified on supplied document.


    Hell, they might even have a rubber stamp with those exact words!
    Maybe that's the attitude in the USA to your "blacksmiths or plane-jane Shop Idiots" but it isn't something I've experienced.

    If the drawings and specs were questioned as often as suggested then a red light should flash. With the OP in mind then why would anyone interpret the spec as a sharp corner unless they wanted to be confrontational? To me this entire thread has been a theoretical discussion and not a practical one.

    I've worked with Americans on aerospace products and there does seem to be a routine where some of those "above" talk down to those below that I've never witnessed to the same degree here.

    Much the same when I read in PM that some refer to their colleagues as "button pushers" and similar. Apparently it's important to some to have a "caste" system.

    To me treating a genuine question with disrespect is like telling your dentist you think he's a moron before he starts.

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    [QUOTE=Gordon B. Clarke;3325571...but it isn't something I've experienced.

    ...[/QUOTE]


    Again, I assume you were dealing with them in a different capacity.
    Otherwise though, they are all the same!
    The makers are referred to either as "Blacksmiths" or "Shop Idiots".

    Sidenote: "Shop Idiot" is the preferred term nowadays since most of the current "Engineers" couldn't spell Blacksmith, let alone knowing what they do!


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