Height Gage

Hi everyone, I have a number of questions.

I'm thinking of buying one for testing parts I plan on making and selling. Low volume but high total count of parts and pretty much all will be unique, nothing that's going up into space or that's going to fly.

1.) I can't find any good sources of information that talk about how to use a height gage. I'm sure there are more ways than what I can think of, of measuring things with a height gage but I can't find anything that talks about using these suckers. I've searched the depths of google and came up empty. Any good books on the subject? I've dug through Mitutoyo web pages and found very little applicable material.

2.) From my research, I've concluded that vernier are out. I think a fancy 2D, motorised, air bearing monster that costs 5-10k is way above my budget and beyond my needs. So that leaves a digital readout height gage. But since I found so little info about how to use them I can't help but wonder, will a basic height gage suffice my needs? A better question is: can a combination of test indicator and height gage measure everything that the fancy, expensive, aforementioned varieties can measure? Just slower, requiring a bit of maths and perhaps with less precision?

Thanks!

1. Your location.

2. If you need to get advice on using a height gauge are you sure you are in the right profession?

3. You're much too vague about what you intend making to get advice you can use.

Shazam said:

Hi everyone, I have a number of questions.

I'm thinking of buying one for testing parts I plan on making and selling. Low volume but high total count of parts and pretty much all will be unique, nothing that's going up into space or that's going to fly.

1.) I can't find any good sources of information that talk about how to use a height gage. I'm sure there are more ways than what I can think of, of measuring things with a height gage but I can't find anything that talks about using these suckers. I've searched the depths of google and came up empty. Any good books on the subject? I've dug through Mitutoyo web pages and found very little applicable material.

2.) From my research, I've concluded that vernier are out. I think a fancy 2D, motorised, air bearing monster that costs 5-10k is way above my budget and beyond my needs. So that leaves a digital readout height gage. But since I found so little info about how to use them I can't help but wonder, will a basic height gage suffice my needs? A better question is: can a combination of test indicator and height gage measure everything that the fancy, expensive, aforementioned varieties can measure? Just slower, requiring a bit of maths and perhaps with less precision?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Height Gage is a very versatile tool, how you use it depends on the type of parts you are manufacturing, and the held tolerance.
and generally are used on a surface plate, be more specific on the application. what do you want to measure.
It can measure runout, height or lengths of parts,
a precision base with an indicator can be also be a versatile tool, addition to the height gage , holders for dial indicators are very useful, that is used for so many different inspection attributes,
tell us what you are trying to accomplish,

I'm designing and building a recreational flight simulator.

Lots of small components like for this type of "steam" gauge (mostly spur gears of various sizes):

Instrumentation - King Air B200 Flight Simulator

You can see the number of small components in the first image and what the gauge looks like when it's complete i.e. it's around 2.5 * 2.5 inches height by width, and maybe 10 inches deep.

Also larger panels that house all the switches like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ead_panel_of_an_Airbus_A320_during_cruise.jpg

I'm looking at the largest component being roughly up to 20 inches by say 10, so I would need quite a large height gauge for this, the 24" Mitutoyo one for example.

There are larger components that need to be made, like all the framing and trim, but these things don't need to be awfully precise.

In terms of the smaller components, I don't know what their tolerances need to be at this stage, I'm still some way off from creating final parts ready for manufacture. Given that as I said, it's not going into space or up in the air, tolerances will have to be what I can get from most likely a Taig Mill and a Taig lathe for the smaller metal components. I have a router for the larger and non metallic components already.

The whole point of the height gauge would be to manufacture the panel on a CNC machine, check it immediately for various dimensions to check that it will work in the final assembly as some parts need to be painted and engraved which is a lengthy process in itself, so finding out something went wrong after all these steps would be a real kick in the back side. QA would mostly be checking for things like missed steps on the CNC machines (even though I haven't experienced this ever since installing shielded cables), incorrectly sized bits selected between setups.

Hope that sums it up.

"Hope that sums it up."

Almost. Location or thread gets closed.

Shazam said:

I'm designing and building a recreational flight simulator.

Lots of small components like for this type of "steam" gauge (mostly spur gears of various sizes):

Instrumentation - King Air B200 Flight Simulator

You can see the number of small components in the first image and what the gauge looks like when it's complete i.e. it's around 2.5 * 2.5 inches height by width, and maybe 10 inches deep.

Also larger panels that house all the switches like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ead_panel_of_an_Airbus_A320_during_cruise.jpg

I'm looking at the largest component being roughly up to 20 inches by say 10, so I would need quite a large height gauge for this, the 24" Mitutoyo one for example.

There are larger components that need to be made, like all the framing and trim, but these things don't need to be awfully precise.

In terms of the smaller components, I don't know what their tolerances need to be at this stage, I'm still some way off from creating final parts ready for manufacture. Given that as I said, it's not going into space or up in the air, tolerances will have to be what I can get from most likely a Taig Mill and a Taig lathe for the smaller metal components. I have a router for the larger and non metallic components already.

The whole point of the height gauge would be to manufacture the panel on a CNC machine, check it immediately for various dimensions to check that it will work in the final assembly as some parts need to be painted and engraved which is a lengthy process in itself, so finding out something went wrong after all these steps would be a real kick in the back side. QA would mostly be checking for things like missed steps on the CNC machines (even though I haven't experienced this ever since installing shielded cables), incorrectly sized bits selected between setups.

Hope that sums it up.

Click to expand...

HG are essential as general purpose (VERY!) resources for manual layout or QC metrology done cheaply when one cannot justify nor predict bespoke gaging in advance - or hasn't the repeat volume need.

Read "very flexible, but highly dependent on skilled labour".

As-in knowing how to apply them accurately, consistently, efficiently .. not just "read some numbers".

Even so, you "QC" a panel of the sort shown with a 100% scale Mylar template.

Anything else involving a height gage is a career, not an affordably sane QA process! Time thing.

Because.. CNC are generally more reliable than humans.

Get it right, it stays right. And they generally do "get it right".

Similar challenge, looong time ago, $6,000 to a firm whose main Day Job was building the electronics interior kit-outs for satellite broadcast vans for the news networks got my India ink on vellum drawings turned into code for a CNC "thing" that was some sort of crossbreed between the Devil, a mill that could drill and tap, an 'any shape" punch, nibbler, and bender.

Price per unit after the first six included for QC sign-off, was about a hundred bucks each, fully finished, the Stainless steel and aluminium alloy materials included.

3-D goods. Complex. Industrial rackmount servers for data centres, 1/3 'U".
Your panel is dirt-simple by comparison.

That cost figure is not likely to cover a great deal of your time?

Even so, that's the sort of CNC fab capability you would have been competing with....... 25 years ago.

I don't see this as a metrology issue, at core.

Business plan, or lack thereof, actually.

Gordon B. Clarke said:

Location

Click to expand...

I'm in East Coast Australia.

Too bad we can't get him connected with a contributor on another (somewhat less professional) forum. He's got a thread started because he's bought three height gauges over the years because they looked so cool and is now asking what they're used for.

Shazam said:

I'm in East Coast Australia.

Click to expand...

I think that Gordon would like you to update your profile adding your location. It's mandatory per forum etiquette and rather easy to do from a regular computer. Some new members using cellphones complain that it's hard or impossible to add that information from their platform. I don't know if this is true or not, since I rarely use my phone to read PM threads. If you are indeed using your cellphone, you might be better off requesting the desktop site in your Internet browser.

Paolo

Shazam said:

I'm designing and building a recreational flight simulator.

Lots of small components like for this type of "steam" gauge (mostly spur gears of various sizes):

Instrumentation - King Air B200 Flight Simulator

You can see the number of small components in the first image and what the gauge looks like when it's complete i.e. it's around 2.5 * 2.5 inches height by width, and maybe 10 inches deep.

Also larger panels that house all the switches like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ead_panel_of_an_Airbus_A320_during_cruise.jpg

I'm looking at the largest component being roughly up to 20 inches by say 10, so I would need quite a large height gauge for this, the 24" Mitutoyo one for example.

There are larger components that need to be made, like all the framing and trim, but these things don't need to be awfully precise.

In terms of the smaller components, I don't know what their tolerances need to be at this stage, I'm still some way off from creating final parts ready for manufacture. Given that as I said, it's not going into space or up in the air, tolerances will have to be what I can get from most likely a Taig Mill and a Taig lathe for the smaller metal components. I have a router for the larger and non metallic components already.

The whole point of the height gauge would be to manufacture the panel on a CNC machine, check it immediately for various dimensions to check that it will work in the final assembly as some parts need to be painted and engraved which is a lengthy process in itself, so finding out something went wrong after all these steps would be a real kick in the back side. QA would mostly be checking for things like missed steps on the CNC machines (even though I haven't experienced this ever since installing shielded cables), incorrectly sized bits selected between setups.

Hope that sums it up.

Click to expand...

You don't need a height gage, you need a decent CAD program and a CNC router.
And some practice at paint filling the lettering.

I used to do panels for our test equipment similar to your illustration. We had the engineer do a full size plot, glue it to a blank panel. It was all eyeball work, just line it up and go. A vernier height gage would do quite nicely to check panels like these.

Also, for some of your gages, try repurposing some of those automotive electronic gauge thingies, some are stepper motor based, electronic driver cards off the shelf, easily programmed to your use. No gears, no muss no fuss, just make new gage faces.

trevj said:

You don't need a height gage, you need a decent CAD program and a CNC router.
And some practice at paint filling the lettering.

Click to expand...

One Day Job did only one-offs. A part of our work supporting the Behavioural Sciences folks who ran ergonometric, fatigue, simulated stress scenarios to see how well GI's could be expected to USE a weapons system, often at night. Weapons were not OUR work. We were only meant to provide a means to "score" and log the data as they tested the operators.

Our PRINTER was source for some of our best panels.

We'd execute holes in arcrylic, contact print the labels on full sheets, place the actual large format film back of the Lucite, sheet of rubylith or amber plexi back of that, then backlight the whole deal so all the legends could be adjusted for brightness.

Similar low-volume tehnique, we did colored visual displays for NASA and military battle management facilities.

Guess thaat's all done on flat-panel puter screens NOW?

Way not this, too?

It's a simulator. Not the actual aircraft.


No engraving. No filling. Just artwork and a negative or positive contact print operation, any art required, Company logo and all.

Good write up, thank thermite.

thermite said:

HG are essential as general purpose (VERY!) resources for manual layout or QC metrology done cheaply when one cannot justify nor predict bespoke gaging in advance - or hasn't the repeat volume need.

Click to expand...

This is exactly the reason why I'm considering one. My volumes will be low but the number of unique components will be thousands, probably around 2000. So far I have around 1000 unique parts that aren't final yet.

thermite said:

Read "very flexible, but highly dependent on skilled labour".
As-in knowing how to apply them accurately, consistently, efficiently .. not just "read some numbers".

Click to expand...

The reason for my initial question. I have found it really hard to find much useful info on how to use them properly. I'm sure there’s a lot I don’t know.

thermite said:

Even so, you "QC" a panel of the sort shown with a 100% scale Mylar template.
Anything else involving a height gage is a career, not an affordably sane QA process! Time thing.

Click to expand...

Point taken.

thermite said:

Because.. CNC are generally more reliable than humans.
Get it right, it stays right. And they generally do "get it right".

Click to expand...

I've had incorrectly sized bits sent to me and it took longer than I'd like to admit to figure out that that was the problem. That was the last thing I was suspecting.
Plus, I don't have access to auto tool changers, so there's always the chance of inserting the wrong sized bit. As I said, since components require days of manufacture. Finding out that there was a stuff up last week is simply not an option.

thermite said:

Similar challenge, looong time ago, $6,000 to a firm whose main Day Job was building the electronics interior kit-outs for satellite broadcast vans for the news networks got my India ink on vellum drawings turned into code for a CNC "thing" that was some sort of crossbreed between the Devil, a mill that could drill and tap, an 'any shape" punch, nibbler, and bender.
Price per unit after the first six included for QC sign-off, was about a hundred bucks each, fully finished, the Stainless steel and aluminium alloy materials included.
3-D goods. Complex. Industrial rackmount servers for data centres, 1/3 'U".
Your panel is dirt-simple by comparison.

Click to expand...

Didn’t understand the 1/3 U bit.
Most of my parts are pretty simple but still, they need to be checked. Somehow. The more complex parts will make up the control yoke and the rudder pedal mechanisms. As per these examples:

thermite said:

That cost figure is not likely to cover a great deal of your time?
Even so, that's the sort of CNC fab capability you would have been competing with....... 25 years ago.

Click to expand...

Yep I know, I'm not making anything groundbreaking.

thermite said:

I don't see this as a metrology issue, at core.
Business plan, or lack thereof, actually.

Click to expand...

I’m mostly putting this down to lack of education in this field, whether it be about height gauges in general or QA. All the articles I’ve googled have all said that height gauges are a must have for as you said QA and layout work. But there’s really not much info past such blanket statements, so I’ve just run with it and started looking for as much information about the topic as I could find. As I said, useful info is like trying to find hens teeth. Not sure whether that’s down to me typing the wrong words in the search bar, or whether it’s down to the fact that what I am trying to do isn’t done for a specific reason. Judging by your post, I’m starting to suspect the latter.

Paolo_MD said:

I think that Gordon would like you to update your profile adding your location. It's mandatory per forum etiquette and rather easy to do from a regular computer. Some new members using cellphones complain that it's hard or impossible to add that information from their platform. I don't know if this is true or not, since I rarely use my phone to read PM threads. If you are indeed using your cellphone, you might be better off requesting the desktop site in your Internet browser.
Paolo

Click to expand...

I updated my profile, but it’s not showing up for some reason. The best I could do was respond in this thread.

machinistrrt said:

Also, for some of your gages, try repurposing some of those automotive electronic gauge thingies, some are stepper motor based, electronic driver cards off the shelf, easily programmed to your use. No gears, no muss no fuss, just make new gage faces.

Click to expand...

I'll bare that idea in mind. Automotive gauges are much simpler however than aviation gauges. They are not a simple single hand on a dial. There's a lot more that goes into making an aircraft gauge. Here's an example of a real one. Simulator ones don't need to be quite complex, but they are still not trivial to make:

A-10C Home Cockpit: Making the Standby Attitude Indicator - YouTube

How to use one depends on what you need to do. From putting a scribe on to do layout for center punching and drilling holes. Up to nothing more than a holder for a test indicator, to use with a height master for feature location and size.

IMO, using one with an indicator to directly measure is an accident waiting to happen.

Shazam said:

Good write up, thank thermite.

This is exactly the reason why I'm considering one. My volumes will be low but the number of unique components will be thousands, probably around 2000. So far I have around 1000 unique parts that aren't final yet.

The reason for my initial question. I have found it really hard to find much useful info on how to use them properly. I'm sure there’s a lot I don’t know.

Point taken.

I've had incorrectly sized bits sent to me and it took longer than I'd like to admit to figure out that that was the problem. That was the last thing I was suspecting.
Plus, I don't have access to auto tool changers, so there's always the chance of inserting the wrong sized bit. As I said, since components require days of manufacture. Finding out that there was a stuff up last week is simply not an option.

Didn’t understand the 1/3 U bit.
Most of my parts are pretty simple but still, they need to be checked. Somehow. The more complex parts will make up the control yoke and the rudder pedal mechanisms. As per these examples:

View attachment 296920
View attachment 296921



Yep I know, I'm not making anything groundbreaking.


I’m mostly putting this down to lack of education in this field, whether it be about height gauges in general or QA. All the articles I’ve googled have all said that height gauges are a must have for as you said QA and layout work. But there’s really not much info past such blanket statements, so I’ve just run with it and started looking for as much information about the topic as I could find. As I said, useful info is like trying to find hens teeth. Not sure whether that’s down to me typing the wrong words in the search bar, or whether it’s down to the fact that what I am trying to do isn’t done for a specific reason. Judging by your post, I’m starting to suspect the latter.



I updated my profile, but it’s not showing up for some reason. The best I could do was respond in this thread.



I'll bare that idea in mind. Automotive gauges are much simpler however than aviation gauges. They are not a simple single hand on a dial. There's a lot more that goes into making an aircraft gauge. Here's an example of a real one. Simulator ones don't need to be quite complex, but they are still not trivial to make:

A-10C Home Cockpit: Making the Standby Attitude Indicator - YouTube

Click to expand...

Shazam
the last video you posted I see components that are high precision, to inspect components as such requires micrometers, Gage pins,Precision Gage Blocks, a way to measure Bores, outside diameters, with precision inspection equipment. EG Bore Gages, Super Mic's, supporting equipment such as v-blocks, 123 blocks, angle plates & more,
and requires an In depth under standing of precision mechanical inspection.

Height gages are very, very simple to use. Do you have all the support equipment to go with them?

crazygoat said:

Height gages are very, very simple to use.

Click to expand...

Granite Surface Plate - The Foundation of Metrology - YouTube

Full course? Seriously. Won't do yah the least BIT of "harm" whether 60 minutes in the trade. Or 60 YEARS at it. Good stuff, here. They have competition, too:

Episode 000 - Intro To Metrology Training - Welcome to the Metrology Training Lab - YouTube

Do you have all the support equipment to go with them?

Click to expand...

Not a trivial investment, is it?

Used-but good, and yah have to have the goods to vet the goods, and know HOW..ELSE yer playin' wit' yerself.. yah can prolly get in for about $5,000.

The AA is from Do-All (bought new)

The A is from Herman (used)

The B is from B&S (used)

HG's? "many". Up to 49". Micrometers to 18", precision scales to 6 feet.

And then the DI's ...the gage blocks.. their accessory kits.. the extenders.. .and then..

Starrett/Weber Digi-check, B&S Height-i-Cator, Cadillac Gage Pla-Chek

"non trivial exercise", metrology is.

But EVERYTHING ELSE .. depends on it.. so yah do it..

It can even be a bit of fun...

In a past life I was involved in instrument panel manufacturing like you're trying to do.

Old style was with mylars and pin router blocks. Mylars to find the center of the gauge and pin router blocks for the cutouts.

Later style was CNC router. Absolute programming to position to the center of the gauge and subroutines with incremental programming for the cutouts. Some cutouts required drill jigs to maintain critical edge distance when the CNC router couldn't hold the tolerances. There's a book of standards for gauge cutouts but I don't remember the number/title.

Hand filing of cutouts with square corners. Dummy gauges or empty gauge cans to check for fit. Silkscreening of nomenclature.

MUCH time and effort went into instrument panels since this was an "appearance" item. Three full time people in the shop I was supporting and these guys were good at it.

thermite said:

"non trivial exercise", metrology is.

But EVERYTHING ELSE .. depends on it.. so yah do it..

It can even be a bit of fun...

Click to expand...

Reading your posts is like listening to Yoda. I'm sure it would help if you wrote in a more normal English.

Gordon B. Clarke said:

Reading your posts is like listening to Yoda. I'm sure it would help if you wrote in a more normal English.

Click to expand...

So put me on "ignore" and make listening to Yoda your exclusive source.

Even better? ignore Yoda as well.

How hard was that?