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Combination sets made of pot metal!

BDGiven

Plastic
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Location
Wadsworth, OHIO USA
We have quite a few combination sets made or rebranded by a top name brand. "S"
These see pretty heavy use by our layout department.
The scale alignment tabs keep wearing down very rapidly and seem to be made of soft powdery metal. "junk"
I've made sure the edge of the scales are smooth and not causing the damage but I believe the problem is the material the scale slides against.
Anyone know of a brand that still uses good metal to make these?
 
I cant help you with finding a higher quality scale, just curious if you are absolutely certain the damage isn't operator error. IME very few people in the manufacturing industry properly use and care for their equipment. After doing a little investigating you may find you have 1 operator who is responsible for most of the damage to the scale. And if its not an operator, you should still try and determine root cause as to why they continue to get worn down, even if it is made of cheap material something may be dragging on the scale and causing the damage.
 
We have quite a few combination sets made or rebranded by a top name brand. "S"
These see pretty heavy use by our layout department.
The scale alignment tabs keep wearing down very rapidly and seem to be made of soft powdery metal. "junk"
I've made sure the edge of the scales are smooth and not causing the damage but I believe the problem is the material the scale slides against.
Anyone know of a brand that still uses good metal to make these?
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obviously Starrett makes better ones out of steel
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typically the cheaper combination squares are for welding and scribing layout lines where high precision not needed. often extra tight cause you want it to hold a setting
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also common to rough position stock in a vise or chuck.
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i have also found the ruler or scales of the cheaper ones are often not 12.0000" and often are .020" or more off checking with a digital caliper. i always saved to better Starrett ones for high precision work (ruler usually within .001 or .002") and used the cheaper carpenter ones for welding or spacing parts in a vise where if .010" off it did not matter. obviously not going to be getting welding arc marks on a good one or be rubbing it on abrasive rough surface rusty steel.
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i also used to chop up the cheaper combination square so i could mount the little level on other things so the locking screws was extra. the cheaper combination squares of pot metal often the ruler is plated or even stainless. so they typically dont get rusty. but often the ruler lines are printed not engraved deep as its cheaper to make. and again the 12.0000 ruler might actually be 12.020"
 
pot metal ones are made for rough non precision use and are throw always. if i get arc marks on it and or drop it many times obviously if its less that $10. i not going to worry about it compared to a over $50. combination square.
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i use to buy the pot metal one and cut off the level part to mount on other stuff. ruler and the locking screw were extra and were spares.
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basically a pot metal one made for a carpenter is not any where near what a precision one made for a machinist is. like i said often the ruler marks are printed and not deep engraved or they are stamped on a press. the rulers are often off size .020" but if it is engraved only to 1/16" it dont matter usually
 
I didn't really want to be dissing a company here but, the "S" stands for Starrett.
These are not the cheap ones. Some just in a cardboard box and others in a nice red plastic case and all. Doesn't seem to matter.
We have a few older Starrett sets that are made of quality metal and the harder tab does not wear down or wear the scale.
These new ones are a soft powdery metal that wears down just sliding the scale in and out.
We try to buy quality items that last. But when the manufacturer switches to making junk I'm not going to continue buying it.
Anyone have the Brown & Sharpe model?
 
I didn't really want to be dissing a company here but, the "S" stands for Starrett.
These are not the cheap ones. Some just in a cardboard box and others in a nice red plastic case and all. Doesn't seem to matter.
We have a few older Starrett sets that are made of quality metal and the harder tab does not wear down or wear the scale.
These new ones are a soft powdery metal that wears down just sliding the scale in and out.
We try to buy quality items that last. But when the manufacturer switches to making junk I'm not going to continue buying it.
Anyone have the Brown & Sharpe model?

Yes, I've got Brown and Sharpe. Hardened and ground parts that I've had since I suppose 1975 and they're not worn out. The pin that holds the blade has an extended knurled end so you can rotate it to the side you want and so the blade will pass - unlike others I've used that require jiggling to reassemble.
 
Thanks TGTool.
The scale locating tab that the pin pulls the blade into is what is wearing out. It generally wears out of square or center.
I wonder if the new ones will be as good. I guess I'll find out!
 
Got a pic, I have been using combo squares for 30 years and am not sure what you are talking about, do you mean the threaded pin with the tit on it that goes into the groove?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Got a pic, I have been using combo squares for 30 years and am not sure what you are talking about, do you mean the threaded pin with the tit on it that goes into the groove?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, I think he's telling us that his tit wears out. In other circumstances I just suggest standing back a little further.
 
We have quite a few combination sets made or rebranded by a top name brand. "S"
These see pretty heavy use by our layout department.
The scale alignment tabs keep wearing down very rapidly and seem to be made of soft powdery metal. "junk"
I've made sure the edge of the scales are smooth and not causing the damage but I believe the problem is the material the scale slides against.
Anyone know of a brand that still uses good metal to make these?

That's tragic. Yes. All of them if you but order properly.

"Real Machinists" often had those "brand S" goods. Ground and black-wrinkle finished Cast IRON and steel. Not ZAMAK, Different SKU number. Higher price, of course.

But didn't ordinarily USE them enough in forty years to have to care. Carpenters nor cabinet makers, either. Most weeks, they were but "decorator" grade box top-tray-filler-outers.

Go off and get you the "usual suspects" as actually did the daily WORK.

Brown & Sharpe, Lufkin, Scherr-Tumico, Czech Kinex or Polish VIS. Starrett only if you have a gambling addiction.

Precision squares in hardened alloys of STEEL. Throughout, not just partly, and in various options to suit "various" but common needs.

EX: Measuring - Squares - Machinist / Engineer - Taylor Toolworks

Of COURSE they have competition.

No need to slide, then have to go and vet them against a master, each go.

One had several FIXED sizes as HELD whatever they had, be that great, good, or just passable.

Easier and faster to handle. Lower risk of scrap. Paid for "Real Soon NOW" off those savings.

Do not.. take-on "real jobs", pay "real wages", then CRIPPLE honest craftsmen by issuing the same shite that goes into a 7-year-old's Christmas "big boy, now" so-called toolbox!

The little kid at least has the sense to brand his Dad a cheapskate, and the option to sneak-off and use his Uncle or Grand Dad's GOOD ones! DAMHIKT

End of problem, either way.

:)
 
When I was an appie in the 80's I discovered a small hardware shop in Bulawayo that had a couple of Starrett combination sets in stock. I literally ran to the bank, drew out a substantial portion of my savings,ran back and purchased a set.
I got home and the disappointment set in. There was a mark on the protractor face where it touched a spinning grindstone as it was pulled out of the machine. The box said "Made in Brazil." What a letdown.
After that I limited my purchases to Mitutoyo and Moore and Wright. Ebay now advertises Mexican Mitutoyo so 'used in good condition' may be the only option.
 
Starrett i believe has the international tools and the made in the usa tools or it used to.
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and many companies sell silver, gold, platinum tools or good, better, best. gee is it a surprise the cheapest tools are not as good. doest matter if price is $100., $200., $300. and you think $100. is a lot of money.
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all catalogs i know of say what combination square head is made off. cast iron and steel is common on better ones. there are no pot metal squares of high quality dont care if it cost $1000. you buy pot metal or zamak zinc aluminum alloy metal one, dont expect much
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i never had trouble with Starrett tools. if i ever had problems within 30 days i believe they will replace any defective tools. any tool if you had it a long time usually not covered by a lifetime warranty. got to watch that anyway. Craftsman wood chisels are hardened very soft why ? cause if broke they replace it bent they do not replace thus made soft so they bend not break. dont matter if doesnt hold a edge long. they were designed for the warranty, got to watch stuff designed by lawyers
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Stanley makes pot metal carpenter squares. never heard of Starrett making pot metal squares. sometimes the locking screws are interchangeable that is the screw on a $10. combination square might work on a more expensive one. no guarantees of course. obviously the threads might be inch or metric and the rest too might be slightly different
 
I didn't really want to be dissing a company here but, the "S" stands for Starrett.
These are not the cheap ones. Some just in a cardboard box and others in a nice red plastic case and all. Doesn't seem to matter.
We have a few older Starrett sets that are made of quality metal and the harder tab does not wear down or wear the scale.
These new ones are a soft powdery metal that wears down just sliding the scale in and out.
We try to buy quality items that last. But when the manufacturer switches to making junk I'm not going to continue buying it.
Anyone have the Brown & Sharpe model?

I haven't purchased a combination square set from Starrett as new for some years, maybe 10 or 12(?). Certainly they have changed their supply chain practices in recent times, however, the only materials I see listed for combination squares on the Starrett website are plain cast iron and hardened/ground forged steel. Definitely not any sort of light metal alloy. I can only imagine that you have the cast iron version of the squares, and maybe the plain cast iron is wearing down, perhaps because the castings are not as close-grained as one would normally expect. This could be due to a change in process or supplier or both. I suspect that if you were to decide to pay the premium for the hardened/forged heads, this might not be an issue, but you have to evaluate that for your environment. In any event, I would contact Starrett for some sort of explanation.

I would note that the hardened version of the square head is meant to solve this problem as a primary function. Those reference nibs for the scale edge are quite small, and a non-hard contact surface won't survive anywhere nearly as well in a heavy-use situation, especially if there is a lot of dust and abrasive particulate fines in the air or being spread around by grinding processes.
 
The pot metal squares as we all know are garbage. Being a steel fabricator most of my life, laying out edge distance lines was done hundreds of times in a shift on the worst of surfaces. Rough steel beams would eat up a pot metal tool in hours. I resorted to buying Mititoyo and cruising garage sales for cast iron squares. I know it is a terrible thing to do to a nice machinist square sliding it across rusty beams but they do withstand this level of abuse for many years. The hardened rules also stand up well.
You can purchase cast iron combination square sets made in China and they are perfect for a rough guy like myself were within a 32nd on a soapstone line is darn good.
The tit problem is common and the only solution I found was to build up the step with brazing rod then file it back to shape.
 
i only use the cheap Stanley carpenter combination squares for structural steel work as never would i use a precision square on rusty rough steel.
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they are throw away tools after a few years (less than 10 years) i get another and dont think a millisecond about getting a new one. its the way it is. no tool heavily used will last forever, get over that way of thinking.
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i dont believe any pot metal combination square is made by Starrett. there maybe counterfeit ones. but i dont believe there are real ones. like buying a $5. Rolex watch and even if somebody convinces you its real and charges you $5000. for the fake Rolex watch. still not a real one.
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in China every body has little UV lights, why cause real money looks different under UV light. counterfeit products can be so good some Chinese buy Nike shoes from the USA and have them sent to China. why ? cause Chinese stores got counterfeits so well made average person cannot tell if anything is real or not.
 
Well, some of you got what I was referring to.
The "tit" down inside the heads that the scale locates on wears down.
Not the pull pin.
I'm no bean counter! 15 years machining, 10 yr. supervising, 9 yr. managing our gage lab.
I DON'T BUY JUNK .
These are the red box set Starrett 434 series combination sets supposedly made of hardened steel. Well at least the square head and center head, the protractor is still cast iron, but it's the best they sell.
The square heads hold up much better than the center heads which still seem to be cast iron as well.
I believe one problem is the harsh environment. Most of our material is a type of armor plating and there a good bit of abrasive work where the layouts are being performed.
Brazing the tit back would still be soft.
A hardened insert might be a way to go.
 
Have you tried contacting Starret with your complaint ?

Well, some of you got what I was referring to.
The "tit" down inside the heads that the scale locates on wears down.
Not the pull pin.
I'm no bean counter! 15 years machining, 10 yr. supervising, 9 yr. managing our gage lab.
I DON'T BUY JUNK .
These are the red box set Starrett 434 series combination sets supposedly made of hardened steel. Well at least the square head and center head, the protractor is still cast iron, but it's the best they sell.
The square heads hold up much better than the center heads which still seem to be cast iron as well.
I believe one problem is the harsh environment. Most of our material is a type of armor plating and there a good bit of abrasive work where the layouts are being performed.
Brazing the tit back would still be soft.
A hardened insert might be a way to go.

I'll take this as a NO .....:crazy:
 
Well, some of you got what I was referring to.
The "tit" down inside the heads that the scale locates on wears down.
Not the pull pin.
I'm no bean counter! 15 years machining, 10 yr. supervising, 9 yr. managing our gage lab.
I DON'T BUY JUNK .
These are the red box set Starrett 434 series combination sets supposedly made of hardened steel. Well at least the square head and center head, the protractor is still cast iron, but it's the best they sell.
The square heads hold up much better than the center heads which still seem to be cast iron as well.
I believe one problem is the harsh environment. Most of our material is a type of armor plating and there a good bit of abrasive work where the layouts are being performed.
Brazing the tit back would still be soft.
A hardened insert might be a way to go.

Have you spoken to Starrett about it?
 








 
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