A Newbie Tool Review.. Of Sorts...

Hello All!!!

I'm just starting out in the machine trade (I'm still in votech, infact...) and I've been
trying hard to get together what I have come to consider the basics in precision tools.
Strangely enough, it seems like I'm the only one in my class to even consider purchasing
tools for some reason. Instead of spending $100 on cheap Chinese import tools, everyone
seems content on fighting over broken Chinese tools provided by the school...
Pure flabbergastation on my part I'll tell you what..

Anyways, after doing a lot of research on different tools from different brands and spending
pretty much any/all of my (very little) extra money on tools, I feel for some reason compelled
to share what I have gathered and my opinion on all of it...

I will say that I have a strong preference for manual machines vs. CNC.. CNC is just kind of
boring to me I guess. It seems like everyone simply wants something engraved. IDK...

P.s. I hope this isn't simply an annoyance to those on this forum. Definitely not my intention!!!

As you're about to see, I've developed quite the bias toward Starrett products. So there's your
Warning!!!

First up, a little something about compasses/dividers for drafting...
I first purchased a $10 compass from office depot. WRONG.
I then purchased a new $20 compass from Staedtler. Wrong again.
Both of these compasses were just about worthless due to the lack of quality. Very difficult to work with...
I decided to jump on ebay and look at "vintage" offerings and found this...



What a wonderful tool!!! It is a "Blue Dot" VEMCO compass probably manufactured in the ?'60s?
I ended up getting it plus the leadholder and 6" flexible rule by Lufkin for $12 and put it all in a Starrett
soft case. Probably the best money I've ever spent quality for dollar wise....

Next up, my "go-to" set, a student kit from Starrett. I forget the model #...



Here's what I've got to say about this set. I positively love it!! It's great having these items nicely organized
in a pretty little case while I'm at a machine or my table doing layout work. It makes me feel fuzzy inside
The calipers are the new version of the 120A (the plastic bezel). They are nice. Mitutoyo dial calipers are
quite a bit nicer. The 120A is great and perfectly accurate across its entire travel, but its got nothing on
a pair of Mitts when it comes to smooth travel and "feel"... The set originally included a "Yankee" style divider.
I gave them away after I paid $60 for a pair of Starrett's "Tool Maker's" dividers. Those are what the kit should
have come with originally IMO. The combo square, 6" flexible rule, and center punch? Easily the nicest I've ever seen
of ANY manufacturer of any time period. More on a full size combo square set in a bit!!

Now for a small assortment of Starrett paraphernalia...



The first thing I'll comment on is set of small Tool Maker's style calipers/dividers. I bought these used and they seem
to be quite old. The fit and finish on these are quite superior to their newly manufactured versions.The pitch gages, depth
gage, surface gage, and toolmaker's buttons (apparently no longer made), are all VERY nice... I have a rather strange affinity
for the toolmaker's button for some reason. I just love the darn things and don't know why!! It must be something to
do with pre-CNC craftsmanship/magic... Hell, I don't know.. The edgefinder is pretty darn awesome. I chucked it up in a
nice Moore jig borer and edgefound (is that a word?) a cheap parallel a couple times and got awesome repeatability. Like,
.0000, .0000, .0001, .0000, .0002, etc... Maybe that's pretty average for an edgefinder, IDK.. But it took me by surprise.
The master verniers are quite simply the nicest, most beautifully made slide calipers I've ever held or seen, but with that
being said, I honestly cannot imagine paying $600 for them.. $250-$300? Any day. But $600? Ouch. I picked them up off ebay
for $150 and am VERY pleased. Kinda the same scenario with the height gage. EXTREMELY nice, but at $1200 new??
Maybe that's a realistic price point because of the awesome quality and CoO, but I would have expected the price to be
around $600-$800 new. I was VERY lucky to be able to pick it up BRAND NEW for $200

Now for a surprisingly controversial Starrett product, the LastWord Indicator..



After some research, I was very skeptical about this purchase. There are quite a lot of negative opinions of the poor
little thing. But at that point, I had already become quite brand loyal and I found this kit for a reasonable price, so maybe
stupidly, I was willing to give it a shot. I'm glad I did. Are there better indicators? ABSOLUTLEY. Are there more versatile
indicators/kits? From my escapades with it and its attachments, I dare say no (I'm sure I'll get a rebuttal...).
From my short period of experience with it, I'd say that there are two major hang-ups for most people.
One, due to design, you MUST practice serious cleanliness with this indicator. I'm kind of a neat freak, so this doesn't
bother me. Two, you MUST have the travel lever set FULLY EXTREME IN ONE DIRECTION OR THE OTHER...
I got scared a couple of times by this when I thought my indicator was getting the infamous "sticky" condition.
Not the case. I've used this indicator with gage block setups and found any error in consistency of readings to be
perfectly indiscernible... I find the attachments and price point to be especially lovely!!

A Starrett trammel because of the sheet metal work I occasionally run into...



I'm sure a cheaper trammel will suffice almost anyone's needs, but darn is this thing nice. Worth every penny in my opinion.
I didn't get a case for it because it goes in my dedicated "layout" drawer...

Welcome to the site!

One of the best, and most reasonable, ways to buy instruments is to look for a retiring machinist. You can often get a whale of a deal on buying the whole tool box. Granted, you'll have 10-20 decimal equivalent cards, and maybe some spare pairs of boot laces and a what-is-it tool or two, but you'll also have used tools that were someone's working tools. In may cases, calibration data will come with the tools as well if the owner worked in a plant that required privately owned tools to be inspected.

Be careful buying tools from an estate - the last time I ran into an estate sale, the kids had decided that Dad's 1960's vintage Starrett tools were worth about 3/4 of current price, which worked out to about 3 X what dad had paid for them. If you buy them from a retiring machinist, he will more likely go by what he paid for them instead of their current cost.

The skill is something you have to get for yourself, but decent tools help the whole process. Cheap Chinese junk will never be any better, it just gets older...

Now for a surprisingly sweet impulse buy. Don't worry, this one isn't by Starrett



As stated, this was a total impulse buy, as I had yet purchased a depth mic. I saw that its auction was ending
in a few minutes with the opening bid being $15 + $5 shipping. Well I ended up winning that auction unopposed
and for a second I was kind of like "Oh".. A little bit of bidders remorse lol... When I got this little gem in the mail
though, I was amazed.. Sorry for the poor picture, but this Miller Falls 0-3" depth mic is quite possibly one of the
most beautiful mics I've ever laid eyes on. Certainly prettier than any Starrett, Mitt, or B&S that I've ever seen.
Its finish is glossy and PERFECT. There are really no sharp or objectionable edges or other features anywhere
on the tool. Clean and DRY, a gage block STRONGLY wrung to the base.. Again, sorry for the poor photo. You
all are just going to have to take my word for it; this is one beautifully made tool.

Now for something a little more common.



A Starrett No.230 Micrometer. Plain faced (my preference actually), tenths reading, and ratchet thimble (another preference).
A very nice micrometer no doubt about it. I like it more than the 436 model due to the satin stainless finish and the very
useful decimal equiv. chart. Bout all I can say really...

Something Starrett doesn't seem to have much a reputation for:



A Starrett 1" travel indicator. The very first thing I noticed about this indicator was that it is (in comparison to import travel ind.)
very heavy. It "feels" higher quality and is pretty darn smooth to boot. I like it.

Ready for some more gages??



Starrett radius gages, telescoping gages, small hole gages, and adjustable parallels. Not much need be said of these items.
It is of my opinion the each one of these is the best offered by anyone, especially the telescoping gages... The adj. parallels
were purchased as an intermediate solution for my then lack of gage blocks. Tested via surface place and besttest indicator,
these stay well within .0002" across their length..

The original and the one to beat:



This thing is awesome. Period. I've owned a brand new B&S combo set and it was quickly demoted to bandsaw duty.
A friend of mine is a Mitt fan and had their version which I was not impressed with. I don't think many will argue,
this combo set is simply the best money (albeit quite a bit of money) can buy.

Now for tonight's highlight!!!!!





A 43 piece Webber (No, not Starrett-Webber) Gage block set. And Dun Dun Dun.... Complete!!!!!!!
Yes, it's used, but for my purposes as of right now, it's the most gorgeous thing I've ever laid eyes on!!
Not to mention I picked it up for a smooth $55 Some blocks have small burrs, but most still wring
pretty well. I'm still ecstatic when I get to open the (very heavy and well made) case and put these babies
to use!!! Call me crazy, but I do believe there is something holy about a gage block set. Maybe I'm over-reacting.
Nahhh!!!!

Another interesting piece:



This 12x18 cast surface plate was made by The Challenge Mach. Co in the '60s. I purchased it from the school for $20
and refinished it on our large Chevelier surface grinder and as far as I can tell I was able to achieve at least
Grade "B" accuracies. Money and time well spent in my book. I eventually hope to learn to scrape with this being my
first project...

And last, but not least, my newest acquisition...



I picked up this 0-4" set of Lufkin micrometers from ebay for $100 and simply could not be more pleased!!!
Lufkin micrometers HAVE GOT TO BE the MOST UNDERRATED tool out there. These things are freaking nice!
They have an amazing feel. Very smooth, very solid. Zero play in the spindle. Not quite as "freewheel-able"
as Starretts or Mitts, but definitely a classier feel. I actually prefer these to Starrett's 436 offering..
Even the ratchet thimble has a noticeably nicer feel and cleaner "click". As far as a comparision to Mitts,
I would rate Mitts below B&S, whom I would rate a close second to Starrett's 436 offering.... Just my opinion!!
Back to the Lufkin Mics! These appear almost new (aside of the 0-1" anyway). I cleaned/lubed the spindles
and went to calibrate them and found that it was not necessary. Even after service, each one was DEAD ON.
I checked them via gage blocks at the bottom and top of their range and again needed zero adjustment.
Very impressive. Also noted was the method of adjustment. Kind of a collet type thing that you simply tighten
after making the adjustment. Not necessarily superior or inferior, just interesting. I really love this set!!!

Well I guess that's about it!!! Sorry if I annoyed anyone with this. Just felt like sharing! questions, comments, complaints?
Let's hear it! I do believe I just about have the basics covered though... Anything "essential" that I'm missing?

a Mag base, the fishtail gauge for grinding HSS threading tools, a nice Kennedy of Gerstner to keep them in and a dial or digital caliper would be easier to use than the vernier.
Looks like a good starting set, but be careful, they breed.

Actually, I do have a Starrett mag. base I forgot to include, so yep..

Now about fishtails.. I HATE them... IMO, they are absolutely worthless. When grinding threading tools,
I use a protractor set at 60 degrees and form each side of the cutting edge in reference to the
shank of the tool. What this allows me to do is to very accurately and easily set the tool perpendicular
to the work simply because I have the shank of the tool to use as an accurate reference. SOOOO much
easier and more accurate than trying to hamfist the threading tool into the fishtail while holding the flimsy
little thing up against the work. If you use a fishtail to grind the 60 degree Vee, the form may be accurate,
but you have no assurance that you're grinding it true to the shank of the tool and in most cases, I suspect
you don't. Therefore, you're stuck trying to set your tool to your work with a stupid, awkward little gage!!!
Also, I see people using the fishtail to set tool hieght. Absolutely rediculous... It is so easy to be so far off
using the "pin it vertically to the work" method that for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would ever
resort to it, much less teach it!! For smaller threads, it is perfectly inadequate and no one will EVER change my
mind

"Well what about offset threading tools??" Don't even get me started!!! Why (aside of VERY few special circumstances)
would anyone go through the trouble of making some weird anglyed-thang threading tool that is more
difficult to set accurately to the work when the vast majority of the time, the real issue (when it comes to tool/work
clearance) is not the shank of the tool or even the toolholder, but simply the size of the 60 degree tip??
Small and/or offset to one side tip = more tool/work clearence plus easier setting of the tool to the work...

Challenge me on this I dare you!!! ANARCHY!!!!

Of course I know that there is more than just one way to skin a cat, but why would anyone go about it an
awkward way? I mean, skinning cats is kind of gross and I'd rather not spend any more time doing it than necessary...

I'm sure many of the readers here admire your enthusiasm. As you note, you are just starting out in the machining business, so there are many things to learn, especially about the ins and outs of threading practice, and many other highly detail-dependent methods and processes. The best solution is often driven by the actual workpiece circumstance, filtered through one's own experiences. The more experience you have, the larger the library of applicable techniques and options for solutions you will have. Don't rule anything out at the beginning, as it may come in handy 18 years from now...

Welcome, Travis.

Pardon while I get on my , this advice from a calibration person and former Tool Room Coordinator.

While many second-hand tools do work, do be aware for the "wear tools" (gage blocks, adjustable parallels, etc.) as well as the “wear” faces of the others, sometimes they are not the “good deal” you think they are. As the calibration person of an ISO-9001 registered company, I've had to tell more than one person they cannot use one of their "great finds this past weekend" here due to: faces not parallel/pitted/scarred/too scratched, not repeating, etc.

As BobRenz said in an earlier post: … look for a retiring machinist. ... In many cases, calibration data will come with the tools ... While this may not gaurentee acceptance, it at least offers a higher chance of acceptance.

IMHO. stick with the higher-end brands (Starrett, Mitutoyo, Etalon, etc.), individual/personal preferences aside, these all seem to work about equally well, AND most models have stood the test of time. Avoid the ‘no-name’ brands and many of the “store-brands” ; you will have to figure out the middle brands (Brown & Sharpe, Fowler, etc.) on your own as some are decent and others not. Remember, quite often, you get what you pay for.

Stepping down now.

As you go through a machining life, you will run into some tools that are just more nice than they are necessary. As a general rule, most machinist's tools are designed to be usable in multiple ways, versus an auto mechanic's specialized tool for something on a specific car. This means that if we find a wonderful tool, in beautiful condition, and at a nice price, we all have a "chance" of actually using it someday. Over the years, I have wound up with enough 1" mikes to measure off a football field, enough 12" rules to verify the measurements, and a stack of various decimal equivalents charts. I have vernier calipers, dial calipers, and digital calipers. I have some tools that I will probably always keep to one side - my favorites. Some were inherited, some were purchased, and some were part of an entire tool box purchase.

When my 30-year old son asked me if I had a spare 6" caliper, I ran into a problem - I wanted to give him a decent caliper, but which one - I finally found one that I could part with, which dropped my inventory to only about a dozen or so.

So be prepared to wind up with favorites - such as your gage blocks. Some tools will stay in your collection long after you have retired, because you like them. They may wind up in a nicer-than-necessary box, maybe a Gerstner, but you will have them for your entire life.

My $0.02 worth;
Sometimes brand names are important I.E. toilet paper, sometimes not so much I.E. milk. A lot of times (always) it is subjective "good enough" can truly be good enough, while other times you'd like to squeeze every bit of error out of a thing. in my experience (20yrs) all co-axial indicators are made by Blake while 1 inch dial face indicators have a variety of options, sure I want an indicator that is accurate, however keep a few $20 new ones on hand, they will serve you well in times of indicator danger. (coolant, interference, other possibly damaging situations) Buying used is the way to go when starting out, gain experience and listen to those who have. by the sound of it you are off to a rip roaring start!

I just can’t help but give you some great advice before I go ALWAYS WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES.

You seem motivated, that's great. Now keep your eyes peeled for a Noga mag base, and a little Interapid DTI to perch on it. And Mitutoyo digital calipers. You will eventually end up with these since you admire quality, so go ahead and get them now (well, when you have the spare cash).

Nice to hear that you want to learn scraping. Don't start on that surface plate though! Ground CI is a pain, especially if you don't have a feel for it yet. You are bound to come across a precision level in your tool searching; scrape the bottom of that up nice and flat. You might even inspire some of your jaded classmates. If a freshly pinpoint scraped surface doesn't excite someone they are soulless.

Thanks for the replies guy!

I do still need a tenths indicator, so I'm sure I'll be acquiring a nice interapid sooner than later..
BTW, I'm sure you guys know about "those guys" who seem to always find awesome stuff like,
"My brother's friend's uncle's cute daughter bought me some beer to haul off a slightly dusty Monarch 10ee" right?
Well I finally got a small taste of that today. The maintenance dept. here at the school was throwing out
some stuff and I spotted a Starrett 196 back plunger indicator. Looked brand new, but the stem was stuck.
They let me have it and after 15 minutes of work, I had a working indicator! A stem that rides up and down
was caught just slightly above its track. (someone must have over-traveled the hell out of the poor thing...)
It feels and travels like new now and checks out against the mill table, so yea!!

Awesome. I am super happy for you. I have been collecting machinists/measurement/metrology/scrapers tools for the past ten years, and collecting them and using them is the thing I find most satisfying in life. Thats saying alot seeing as I have a very pretty wife, several motorcycles and a ton of guns. Tools are still my true love...

I haven't even been alive as long as many guys here have been in the business, and my box is still full of stuff I never use.

Die makers squares (like a mini tri square), tool makers buttons, those thread in transfer punches, all kinds of different calipers (the kind like a compass), odd ball indicators, and other stuff I don't need. Off the top of my head, I have a Lufkin, a General, a Starret, a Mitutoyo, a NSK, and a Tumico 0-1 micrometer. I sure don't need all of those.

My most used tools are a set of 8" Mits dial calipers and a Noga base and Mits DTI. I would be lost without those tools.

It does amaze me how little other students tend to take this stuff for real. I'm in my 3rd week of class myself. The first day it took over an hour to find all the parts for one magnetic base and another hour to locate a indicator that was 3/4in shorter then we needed. Every day we waste a min of 1hr looking for basic measuring tools. Yet not one person has shown up with their own tools. To me, my education is being hampered looking for basics. I want every hour to be a learning hour and I learned how to search for lost tools in my shop years ago.Like you I would rather buy used quality then new junk. Iv'e been a ebay buying fool this last week and so far I'm at about 800 dollars worth of tools for 65 bucks. Most all Starrett. I commend you. I'm a tool guy and have been from a very young age. If your choosing this path for a career or a hobby, you need these basic tools. If you were in a shop and had to ask a co worker for their tools, they would likely send you off to pound sand. If you need it one time, buy it. You will need it again. When buying used I keep a few things in mind. The most important is "is it cheap enough to repair if needed and still be ahead?" I mean when you get a 200 dollar gage for 20 bucks, it's almost worth the risk. You could resale it and not be hurt either way. Awesome dude

ewlsey said:

I haven't even been alive as long as many guys here have been in the business, and my box is still full of stuff I never use.

My most used tools are a set of 8" Mits dial calipers and a Noga base and Mits DTI. I would be lost without those tools.

Click to expand...

Tools in your toolbox (aka collection) generally fall into the following categories:
- Basics, always use, “would be lost without it”
- I think I can use it!
- Looks cool! Got to have it, I’ll figure out a use for it!
- Looks really cool! What is it? What is it for?

I call shenanigans!! No way is the thread starter a high school student! ...too much experience in the words. :P

Unless, of course, the "votech" school is a secondary school and the author is an adult. Whoops, it's hard to extrapolate text at times.

Oh no!! You caught me QC Dude!! I'm actually die maker with 20 years in the trade.. Darn!! Maybe I should
have typd erythang lyk dis...

Seriously though, I'm 23 and in secondary right now and am enjoying it VERY much. Along with certificates in welding and machining, I'm working toward
an AAS in Mechatronics ie., hydraulics, pneumatics, AC/DC, solid state, motor controls, plc, robotics, etc....
I'm trying to a good BROAD base set of skills. As of right now, my dream job would be working in an interior R&D lab
doing different stuff everyday whether it be machining, welding, building circuits and drives and integrating them, etc...

A guy can dream, can't he???

travis.taylor said:

A guy can dream, can't he???

Click to expand...

Absolutely, Travis. That's great.

I spent my professional life in prototyping/R&D environments.

It's absolutely the best way to spend your life (with one possible exception).

We'll be happy to help any way we can. Sounds like you have a great attitude.

- Leigh

ewlsey said:

I haven't even been alive as long as many guys here have been in the business, and my box is still full of stuff I never use.

Die makers squares (like a mini tri square), tool makers buttons, those thread in transfer punches, all kinds of different calipers (the kind like a compass), odd ball indicators, and other stuff I don't need. Off the top of my head, I have a Lufkin, a General, a Starret, a Mitutoyo, a NSK, and a Tumico 0-1 micrometer. I sure don't need all of those.

My most used tools are a set of 8" Mits dial calipers and a Noga base and Mits DTI. I would be lost without those tools.

Click to expand...

Ewlsey,

Those thread in transfer punch thingies are called transfer screws and if you ever get into building machines instead of just making details you will use them. Have you ever read on a print "locate at assembly"? When you start seeing that on a print, you are on your way to using them.

Big B