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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
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    hole is normally blown out 3 times. holes will look clean. notch is for small particles no average human can see that might give a false ok. that is the no go might not go in cause .001" of a burr or metal dust not seen
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    if that little notch helps no go to go in proving threads are too big and out of specs then it is worth having the thread notch.
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    when you machine many metals you get a fuzz on surface that many will use nylon abrasive on OD parts to remove the fuzz and then wipe with a rag and it appears as black dust. obviously on internal features it is not as easy to clean. like when boring a hole to +/-.0001" tolerances that fuzz can easily give a false reading. is there a technical term for fuzz ??
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    nobody saying to force the thread gage in the hole. if it turns hard obviously use a tap first to clean out the hole. some of us actually worry about .001" or less of stuff that is not easily seen. notch is for rust too not easily seen
    I'm at a loss to understand where you're going with that. I'm guessing what you have in mind is a single threaded item. I'm not.
    Either someone in the company is going to have problems assembling or worse yet, the customer.

    Clean with a tap? Why even bother with a gauge if a tap can be found?

    Rust? How long do you think most wait before inspecting? I don't know how common your thinking is in the USA but if it is then it helps me understand if the USA is sinking in the "battle" for quality. I'm guessing you've never tried delivering anything to Japan.

    Personally I don't remember ever seeing a thread plug gauge with a notch. Now you also seem to be suggesting that a NoGo thread also has a notch. How common are they in the USA or anywhere else? How often have you made and inspected threads? I'd put my number at "thousands".

    I'll try again. A Go thread plug gauge is at the lowest part of the thread tolerance. If it can't just be screwed in then what about screwing in a bolt?

    There you go again with the ±0.0001" tolerance. Remind me again what you work with or have worked with?

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I'm at a loss to understand where you're going with that. I'm guessing what you have in mind is a single threaded item. I'm not.
    Either someone in the company is going to have problems assembling or worse yet, the customer.

    Clean with a tap? Why even bother with a gauge if a tap can be found?

    Rust? How long do you think most wait before inspecting? I don't know how common your thinking is in the USA but if it is then it helps me understand if the USA is sinking in the "battle" for quality. I'm guessing you've never tried delivering anything to Japan.

    Personally I don't remember ever seeing a thread plug gauge with a notch. How common are they in the USA or anywhere else?

    I'll try again. A Go thread plug gauge is at the lowest part of the thread tolerance. If it can't just be screwed in then what about screwing in a bolt?
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    i have seen both types of thread gages notch and notchless.
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    fuzz on metal or unseen coating on metal can interfere with go nogo testing. this includes oil and grease and coolant. maybe things including rust are on the metal in small amounts not seen. doesnt mean it isnt there
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    dampening grease is often used to tighten threads and give a smooth feel rather that feel a type of rattling in fit even if its only .001" or .002", just saying even a rust preventive coating or dried coolant can interfere with go nogo feel
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    i am not saying notch is needed on thread gage but probably pay extra to have thread gages made with the notch
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    if you dont like the notch than dont buy thread gages with the notch. you worry about nothing. notch on thread gages been around over 50 years probably far longer. just cause you never seen before dont mean much
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    some tools are 50 to 150 years old. if they pass calibration they are still used.

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    I think the notch is basically for clearance to make the gage smoother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
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    i have seen both types of thread gages notch and notchless.
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    fuzz on metal or unseen coating on metal can interfere with go nogo testing. this includes oil and grease and coolant. maybe things including rust are on the metal in small amounts not seen. doesnt mean it isnt there
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    dampening grease is often used to tighten threads and give a smooth feel rather that feel a type of rattling in fit even if its only .001" or .002", just saying even a rust preventive coating or dried coolant can interfere with go nogo feel
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    i am not saying notch is needed on thread gage but probably pay extra to have thread gages made with the notch
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    if you dont like the notch than dont buy thread gages with the notch. you worry about nothing. notch on thread gages been around over 50 years probably far longer. just cause you never seen before dont mean much
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    some tools are 50 to 150 years old. if they pass calibration they are still used.
    Huh?

    1. "... can interfere with go nogo feel" What's that?

    2. "i have seen both types of thread gages notch and notchless." Seen and used or just seen?

    3. "if you dont like the notch than dont buy thread gages with the notch. you worry about nothing. notch on thread gages been around over 50 years probably far longer. just cause you never seen before dont mean much" and "some tools are 50 to 150 years old. if they pass calibration they are still used." What I like and dislike has nothing to do with this. I've bought hundreds of thread gauges and used them thousands of times so I do have experience.

    4. "There you go again with the ±0.0001" tolerance. Remind me again what you work with or have worked with?" Forgotten to answer or won't answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I think the notch is basically for clearance to make the gage smoother.
    And yet another theory. How would a notch make a gauge smoother and how would it give clearance?

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    I've just read the OP again. Does anyone know the answer with certainty?

    Has anyone ever intentionally bought a thread gauge with a notch and why?

    I'm not trying to be obtuse or pedantic but, as threads are my "specialty", I'm more curious than most.

    Re my own "theory" then I've seen and tried threads in blind holes where compressed air and/or vacuum gave a problem that a notch would solve.

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    its really quite simple notch is to clean out stuff not easily seen that might interfere with nogo test
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    obviously if thread notch could cut threads bigger with the nogo thread gage and get it to go in that would defeat the point of the nogo not suppose to go in. doesnt take a genius to understand that
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    i work on slides, columns, housings, frames (in 100 lb to 10 ton size) and many parts who's name doesnt mean much with often +/-.0001" tolerances. basically standard practice is to measure a bearing OD to .00005" size and the bearing bore is made to fit that particular bearing. obviously bearing sizes vary too much for high precision stuff to use same dimension on all bearing bores as all bearings are not made to same size. if you never heard of that practice. doesnt mean much just means a person doesnt know everything or seen everything
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    reminds me of apprentice just out of training. if he aint heard of it or seen it he doesnt like it. if he doesnt understand something he expresses disbelief

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    reminds me of apprentice just out of training. if he aint heard of it or seen it he doesnt like it. if he doesnt understand something he expresses disbelief
    You just had to go down that path didn't you? Must admit though you do have a vivid imagination.

    BTW that description is one I'd give to an old timer very set in his own ways and NEVER to an apprentice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You just had to go down that path didn't you? Must admit though you do have a vivid imagination.
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    i have seen many things and many things i have not seen. i generally keep a open mind when i see something new to me and am told what it is for.
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    bottom line notch on thread gage wont cut threads bigger and let nogo go in. that would defeat the purpose of the gage. on the go gage notch will clean stuff not easily seen like dried coolant, very small chips missed, a very small burr. if you got bad go reading why waste time tapping? thread notch gage works better from my experience using it.
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    its a more expensive feature on high end thread gages. certainly can buy thread gages with no notch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You just had to go down that path didn't you? Must admit though you do have a vivid imagination.

    BTW that description is one I'd give to an old timer very set in his own ways and NEVER to an apprentice.
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    does it make sense to use a notch on thread gage and if it could cut threads bigger and nogo gage go in that the thread gage would be used ?? to make the threads out of spec

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    I was going to take a picture of one, but then I found one at MSC, but it won't let me copy the image, so here's the link;

    3/4-16, Class 2B and 3B, Single End Plug 75888651 - MSC

    This is how all my go gages look. Nogos do not have a notch. As you can see, the notch only extends up one to two threads. It was always my impression the notch was to give any debris a place to go, and not bind up the gage.

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  18. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    I was going to take a picture of one, but then I found one at MSC, but it won't let me copy the image, so here's the link;

    3/4-16, Class 2B and 3B, Single End Plug 75888651 - MSC

    This is how all my go gages look. Nogos do not have a notch. As you can see, the notch only extends up one to two threads. It was always my impression the notch was to give any debris a place to go, and not bind up the gage.
    I can't open the link but thanks anyway. I can understand why most would think the notch is for the reason you believe but it just doesn't seem logical to me. The last thing I can imagine a gauge maker would want is an inspection tool being used as a tool to remove debris and/or barbs.

    What I will do is contact a gauge manufacturer and hear what he says. Despite DMFs posts I've never claimed to know the answer but just posted what I found most logical and based on my own personal experience. Could be I'm wrong and it won't be the first or last time

    As mentioned I've made thousands of threaded items and bought and used hundreds of thread gauges.

    As late as a week ago I gave a half day seminar at a large company on thread inspection and measurement. They weren't the first and so far I believe I'm regarded as knowing what I'm talking about.

    I Googled notched go thread plug gauges and, among others, this turned up.

    Internal Threads | 213-2-1 | Quality Magazine

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  20. #33
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    Yep the good old hig by a really nice touch for a thread. Gordon that is a really good link.

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    I've been in touch with one of the guys that knows more about threads than I do. He's American so that probably makes him more credible too

    The part I like is "On a plain cylindrical plug gage; it is for air release." at the end.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails threadgroove1.jpg   threadgroove2.jpg  

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    If it's for air release, why do they call it a chip groove? That would be like calling Danish Butter Cookies, Zweiback

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    I was going to take a picture of one, but then I found one at MSC, but it won't let me copy the image, so here's the link;

    3/4-16, Class 2B and 3B, Single End Plug 75888651 - MSC

    This is how all my go gages look. Nogos do not have a notch. As you can see, the notch only extends up one to two threads. It was always my impression the notch was to give any debris a place to go, and not bind up the gage.
    .
    yes catalog (Meyer) i have does say notch only on go gage NOT the nogo. and they call it a chip groove. galling or material sticking to threads of tapped hole and chips sticking to thread gage the gage maker does mention. that would explain why chips might still in hole after blowing out holes with air. they mention wire brushing the tapped holes but never seen that done
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    still from using thread gage it is not a bottom tap. never even if i wanted can i use a thread gage to make the threads deeper by hand holding gage handle, not likely unless its smaller than M5 and i would just get a bottom tap. works better for making threads deeper
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    thread gages get checked yearly, very rare for one to be worn out. sometimes threads messed up cause material stuck to threads and they need cleaning. 99% of time thread gage just confirms threads are tapped deep enough. better than just using a screw as thread gage more accurate. and of course since thread gage is hardened steel and chrome plated and ground threads the threads do not get damaged as easily as using a soft steel screw. only when milling threads do i normally worry about the nogo gage. with a tapped hole the tap does not make oversized threads if its the correct tap. in theory if cnc forced it in not at correct thread pitch hole threads might be off but that dont happen 99.9999% of time. if cnc is not moving correctly tap just breaks. i have seen cnc that kept turning a extra revolution with spindle travel not moving. those machines usually use a springed extension compression tap holder. when i change tap i oil the tool holder and make sure it can extend and compress and not rusted stuck
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    on hardened steel parts thread gage used to make sure heat treatment did not effect tapped holes enough that screw wont got in tapped holes. i use special oversized taps for heat treated parts and special oversize thread gages. after heat treatment use regular thread gage.
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    thread gage also on bigger sizes confirms hole did not go out of round too much. that sometimes happens after unchucked. usually only a problem on over 1" dia tapped holes. i have seen that happen on 1.5" npt threads cause kurt vise was so tight it was compressing part (air manifold part) and when unchucked part holes distorted out of round

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    If it's for air release, why do they call it a chip groove? That would be like calling Danish Butter Cookies, Zweiback
    Why do they call citizens of the USA Americans? We call "Danish" Vienna Bread. What things are called depends on the country and language.

    I've never heard the expression "chip groove" used before this thread. Might be a US thing.

    Be happy you don't live here and have to say it often.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails llanfair_railway_station_sign_banner.jpg  

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  27. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Why do they call citizens of the USA Americans? We call "Danish" Vienna Bread. What things are called depends on the country and language.

    I've never heard the expression "chip groove" used before this thread. Might be a US thing.

    Be happy you don't live here and have to say it often.
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    Meyer the thread gage maker calls it a chip groove. you can argue with them about what words they call stuff
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    when in China the Chinese call stuff different names. who am i to say 1.6 billion people use the wrong words. especially scientific names named after a European scientist the Chinese never heard of.
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    Chinese call Americans "May gor en" and dont call themselves Chinese
    but "June gor en"
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    you can argue with them too about what words they use for stuff
    Last edited by DMF_TomB; 06-13-2018 at 01:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
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    Meyer the thread gage maker calls it a chip groove. you can argue with them about what words they call stuff
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    when in China the Chinese call stuff different names. who am i to say 1.6 billion people use the wrong words. especially scientific names named after a European scientist the Chinese never heard of.
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    Chinese call Americans "May gor en" and dont call themselves Chinese
    but "June gor en"
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    you can argue with them too about what words they use for stuff
    I've thought about replying to your post but it'd just be a waste of my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I've thought about replying to your post but it'd just be a waste of my time.
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    for the original post the grooves are chip grooves and have been on thread gages for over a 100 years easily
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    you can argue with tool makers about whether you like chip grooves and you can argue with the thread gage makers they dont know how to make thread gages.
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    as anybody with experience knows the chip grooves wont allow you to easily bottom tap holes deeper. it doesnt make the thread gage a tap. the thread gage makers says galling leaves chips sticking to hole that air will not blow out and recommends wire brushing threaded hole but thats rarely done. chip grooves tend to remove the galled stuck small pieces that air will not remove
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    galling or small amounts of material sticking to a surface that will not blow off is common. thats why high precision work a surface is stoned (lapped) to take the fuzz or galled small stuff off surface. on a flat surface just machined after stoning shiny high spots in a random pattern sticking up .0003" is common. its formed as the bue or built up edge forms and breaks off on a cutter. some of bue or small bits stick to metal surface. i see often in .0002" to .0004" amounts
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    i call it fuzz others call it galled surface small particles sticking to surface that air will not remove. fuzz is easier to say. its in bored holes and threaded holes. obviously if boring holes to +/-.0001" you have to deal with "cleaning" the fuzz off. wiping with a rag and blowing air will not remove it. i am sure it is called by many different names in other countries. galled small metal particles sticking to surface effecting precision measurement is a alot to say. easier to say fuzz and thread gage chip grooves help "clean" it off


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