Is there a role for the layout table today?

Damien W · May 26, 2008

Does modern machining technology still have a place for manual marking out processes using a layout table, angle blocks, height or surface gauges?

Does the CNC machining centre make such practices obsolete?

Many of the newer multi-axis machines claim single setup in nearly every situation?

This topic is just an excuse to regurgitate some of my old pictures stored on photobucket.

Like this lovely device. But is it just a comparitor? Can it be used for a direct measurement? What would the correct name of this device be?

Thanks in advance.

hesstool · May 26, 2008

When you're in the business of one-off's, layout is still a very valuable step. I frequently layout pieces before I start removing material.

Your picture is of a Height Master with riser blocks. (I've heard them called Cadillac Gages and Heightacator as well.) Used mostly for comparison measurements, but in the right instance it can take direct measurements.

LexD · May 26, 2008

I think the generic name would be Stepped Height Micrometer although manufacturers use their own, such as Height master etc.

toastydeath · May 26, 2008

Not that I do it that often, but I personally like laying out stuff when there's going to be more than a basic set of fully manual operations done on a part.

That particular piece you posted we call a height master at work, and as others have noted there seems to be no standardization. We've got .0001" indicators on height gauges that we use to take both form and distance measurements with simultaneously.

Damien W · May 27, 2008

toastydeath said:
We've got .0001" indicators on height gauges

Speaking of which can folks comment on how they use DTI's on vernier height gauges?

I imagine that you would 'zero' the DTI and the vernier scale on the layout table first. Can someone elaborate please?

Damien W · May 27, 2008

luthor said:
I think the generic name would be Stepped Height Micrometer although manufacturers use their own, such as Height master etc.

This device would have to be the next step up in accuracy from a vernier height gauge? Or would it be the practical limit in accuracy short of a metrology lab?

Or would you expect to see one only in a metrology lab?

easymike299 · May 27, 2008

Damien W said:
.... But is it just a comparitor? Can it be used for a direct measurement?
Thanks in advance.

Yes it can be used for a direct measurement if it is properly calibrated and you are not trying to split a tenth. Shops on tight budgets often use them if gauge blocks are not available. It is often seen in tool rooms and inspection departments as a means of gathering quick information on a complex workpiece without wringing together massive assortments of gauge blocks. Accuracy and repeatability can be ascertained with periodic external certification or in- house use of gauge blocks.

Modelman · May 27, 2008

Every moldmaking shop I've been in, some quite small, just one or two man operations, has had one on a surface plate somewhere available to everyone in the shop. So long as the work is small enough to carry to the plate, it can take the place of an entire set of micrometers, used as Toastydeath described. I picked up a Cadillac brand gage at an auction some years ago, and with it and the two included risers can measure up to 18" with greater accuracy than any other equipment I have; not that I've had need to. I just think of it as a large micrometer, with similar precision.

[FONT=&quot]Dennis[/FONT]

toastydeath · May 27, 2008

Damien W said:
Speaking of which can folks comment on how they use DTI's on vernier height gauges?

I imagine that you would 'zero' the DTI and the vernier scale on the layout table first. Can someone elaborate please?

You'd have to have some method of either zeroing the height gauge to the indicator, or zero the indicator out to the vernier. We use dial height gauges, so it's not an issue. Press the "reset" button, and everything is peachy.

Once you have the two zeroed out however you care to do it, you can use the graduations on the vernier for getting the absolute measurement, and then slide the whole shenanigan back and forth to get the form of the surface you are measuring. Most often though, we use the height gauge just as a handy adjustable indicator holder and set everything against the master. It's just more accurate that way.

Holescreek · May 28, 2008

Back in the '80s every grinder hand and inspector had a hite master (B&S trade name) on a plate next to them and a test indicator mounted on a usually home-made height gage on the plate next to the hite master. There is an adjustment on the height master to zero it to th surface plate compared to a traceable gage block. Once the gage is zeroed, it is the gospel with regard to measureing accuracy (providing it passed calibration).

It is a transfer measurement gage in that the indicator is zeroed on the part being checked then is moved over to the hite master. the height step is raised until the indicator shows zero and a direct reading is taken as to height from the plate.

The problems I have seen with some older hite masters is distances between steps can change over time. Others have said that it can be due to rust forming between the blocks but I have never seen one apart.

I have 3 in my home shop, one I use daily when I am finish grinding parts. It's hard to break old habits. I also use mine to check calibration on my digital height gages. -Mike

spope14 · May 28, 2008

Layout and CNC

I will use layout for CNC operations quite a bit, for the purpose of checking where the tool is going to go, and to teach new people how to check and trust.

For example, I may layout hole centers for a program to be run so that when the drill or spot drill comes close, you can check to see it is in the right area. Same with basic contouring features, slots, pockets ect..

Students can really check these things out when reference is there, and when I am doing a one-off with real expensive brass or hard to get Stainless, this is, and has been a life saver.

I have been doing this 30 plus years now.

Mud · May 28, 2008

Speaking of layout tables, how are those Portage layout machines used? You know, those big tables with shallow flat bottomed grooves cut across and along the length of them, no T-slots, with tall devices that just look like big scribers sitting on them? I could never figure out how they were used just by looking at them, there were no measurement devices or markings anywhere, no indicators, no clamps, etc. Usually found in shops that did large work.

daredo222 · May 31, 2008

Name of that item?

Micrometer Height Gauge

AF-METALS-TECH · Jun 19, 2008

Newbies

I teach all of my newbies how to properly lay out a part using a height gauge and scribe attachment. Can't just let beginers jump on to the CNC mills and wreck my wonderful toys. When they show me they are compitent on laying out parts and using a mill, correct feeds and speeds then we start to train them on the fun stuff.

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Is there a role for the layout table today?

Damien W

Stainless

hesstool

Stainless

LexD

Hot Rolled

toastydeath

Hot Rolled

Damien W

Stainless

Damien W

Stainless

easymike299

Cast Iron

Modelman

Titanium

toastydeath

Hot Rolled

Holescreek

Titanium

spope14

Stainless

Mud

Diamond

daredo222

Cast Iron

AF-METALS-TECH

Aluminum

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