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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You should see what production people trying hard to ship parts do with spline gauges...
    No, no, no you are using the gage ring as a broach....I know the SWI says this must fit. Hammering it on on off does not count.
    The first time I saw this I just freaked. I walked up and said "what the hell are you doing?" in a not nice voice. I'm all set to write this guy up.
    My worker is shocked so I call the crew together. My people tell me "We do all the time". I was floored.
    I do sure as ever understand why they were doing it and no other super and maybe above on the manufacturing side seemed to care.
    Despite all the new cares about in spec or quality nowadays the "can we ship it" still rules.
    Bob
    When I read your post and similar then of course the USA is slipping further behind other countries re manufacturing quality. No, I'm not saying all other countries don't "cheat" now and then but it does seem to be more prevelent in the USA than in most other countries.

    I recently sold my thread measurement products to a company (in the USA) that manufactures threaded components. It was to be used by their inspectors that go from machine to machine. I asked why the machinists couldn't measure themselves as it was simple to do. The reason? "Our ham fisted machinists couldn't handle a measuring instrument".

    This post has nothing to do with buying cheap and being surprised at getting inferior quality. I've no doubt the company made good products - but at a higher cost than in shops abroad because of the "extra" inspection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    When I read your post and similar then of course the USA is slipping further behind other countries re manufacturing quality. No, I'm not saying all other countries don't "cheat" now and then but it does seem to be more prevelent in the USA than in most other countries.

    I recently sold my thread measurement products to a company (in the USA) that manufactures threaded components. It was to be used by their inspectors that go from machine to machine. I asked why the machinists couldn't measure themselves as it was simple to do. The reason? "Our ham fisted machinists couldn't handle a measuring instrument".

    This post has nothing to do with buying cheap and being surprised at getting inferior quality. I've no doubt the company made good products - but at a higher cost than in shops abroad because of the "extra" inspection.
    Alternatively, maybe they made them at a lower cost due to specialization. If the cost of the inspector and slower feedback is less than the cost of increasing the skill of the entire machining staff they are ahead. If not then you are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jccaclimber View Post
    Alternatively, maybe they made them at a lower cost due to specialization. If the cost of the inspector and slower feedback is less than the cost of increasing the skill of the entire machining staff they are ahead. If not then you are correct.
    Not a discussion I wish to take but it looks like a "low wage" solution. Probably neither the machinists or inspectors get a good pay but I don't know how much they earn so it's only my opinion. Except under very special circumstances machinists in Europe are expected to measure what they make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Not a discussion I wish to take but it looks like a "low wage" solution. Probably neither the machinists or inspectors get a good pay but I don't know how much they earn so it's only my opinion. Except under very special circumstances machinists in Europe are expected to measure what they make.
    It is about the bottom line as are nearly all business decisions, but to write it off as that is more narrow minded than I suspect you to be.
    You do your own design, do you do all of your own manufacturing? Do your machinists do quoting? They should know best what it takes to do their task. Do you make your own tools and consumables? Fix your own car? File your own taxes and perform your own medical operations? Given sufficient time you could do all of these things and more. There is always a line, it’s just a matter of deciding where it should be for your conditions.

    The last place I worked we had a couple locations in Germany and a locations in the US. The people in Germany had nice newer equipment, a small skilled repair staff, and made a lot of product. Of course they also lost money on every widget they sold. Ever try to quote increased volume on an existing product and wonder why the price goes up? This is why.
    The US location for all its flaws had older equipment, more types of employees, a much larger machine repair group, and increased redundancy to cover the increased downtime. It also was very profitable.

    When working with prototype shops it’s always nice to see machinists that are skilled at everything, but I still typically get bad parts without some specialist input to check their processes in advance. Sometimes the pendulum swings one way, sometimes it swings the other. Who are any of us to say that one direction is always right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    ...... Except under very special circumstances machinists in Europe are expected to measure what they make.
    Perhaps it is the "Trust everyone but always cut the deck".
    I have never encountered a machinist who has not made a mistake.
    A screw shop is likely full of machine operators, not machinists. As above under pressure to ship parts.
    A floor audit may eliminate final so could actually be cheaper as any problems are caught closer to the source and not when you have a semi full or god forbid they are in assembled automobiles.
    Ever been in that train wreck with NHTSA?
    Get your big boy checkbook out as 7 figures is not going to cover it on a bad thread in a braking system even if there were only 100-200 bad parts made.

    I do totally get your point but your world of making parts seems a little different than mine so I have to poke a tad
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Perhaps it is the "Trust everyone but always cut the deck".
    I have never encountered a machinist who has not made a mistake.
    A screw shop is likely full of machine operators, not machinists. As above under pressure to ship parts.
    A floor audit may eliminate final so could actually be cheaper as any problems are caught closer to the source and not when you have a semi full or god forbid they are in assembled automobiles.
    Ever been in that train wreck with NHTSA?
    Get your big boy checkbook out as 7 figures is not going to cover it on a bad thread in a braking system even if there were only 100-200 bad parts made.

    I do totally get your point but your world of making parts seems a little different than mine so I have to poke a tad
    Bob
    We do seem to live in two different worlds. Of course mistakes get made. That's unavoidable. It is though as if the USA focused more on competing with India and China than on the countries it should have been competing with. Go back 25 or so years ago and the question is whether some have passed the USA re quality products at reasonable prices.

    Like others, years ago if I bought something Made In The USA, it was good and to be envied. The only US thing I have now I can think of is probably my Weber grill.

    I buy many of my mass produced items from this shop. Excellent quality and reasonable prices. I regard it as a little better than average re what's normal here but not very much.

    en

    I doubt if anyone there earns less than $25 an hour (machinists probably $35 an hour) and yet they are very competitive. A normal work week is 37 hours and min 5 weeks paid annual vacation.

    List of European countries by average wage - Wikipedia

    Denmark in this has an average of EUR €3,270 and that's USD $3,540 a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    No, no, no you are using the gage ring as a broach....I know the SWI says this must fit. Hammering it on on off does not count.
    The first time I saw this I just freaked.
    Since we're swapping war stories ... I know a lady who was q/c at a plant making swash plate bearings for helicopters. This is in North Carolina ... so one day she is doing her thing and one of the (300 lb) women assemblers walks up and asks, "Where do y'all keep them beads ? I'm out."

    Beads ? What beads ?

    "Them round shiny things we put in the middle ..."

    Good thing I don't ride in helicopters


    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    The only US thing I have now I can think of is probably my Weber grill.
    Shoulda gone with the George Foreman model. Gotta love the guy, after Ali he is the greatest.


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