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  1. #21
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    Little offtopic, but actually the simplest explanation why "analog sounds better" is true in listening music is that vinyl records are usually recorded with larger dynamics while digital stuff is compressed. Vinyls are always used at home with proper loudspeakers, but digital music is often listened trough cellphone or via cheap computer speakers. And if one uses less compression, digital via cheap loudspeakers sound even worse.
    So, its mostly decision made in recording studio, not the limitations of digital-analog.
    And this is not only my opinion but opinion of record studio engineers.

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    Has there been any DDD disks recorded since Brothers in Arms?


    Personally - I git tired of flipping albums, and stacking them on the changer supposedly aint good for them, so .... I'll take digital. It sounds the same to me with the hearing that I have....

    No rice crispies in my music.


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I think you are missing the point of the article.

    The article was discussing the fact that humans can gather information, process, and interpret the information in an analog signal much easier than a digital expression of it.

    Nyquist has nothing to do with this portion of the interpretation as the issue is in the display not the processing of the signal.

    Humans are pretty good at sensing 1st and 2nd derivatives and maybe even 3rd order derivatives in special circumstances. Same goes for integrals.

    Part of this gets back to that we are surrounded by the universe which we experience in 3 directional dimensions plus a 4th, time which is sort of different. For us to get the most information from a signal, we need to experience it in a 4 dimensional matrix. Adding more signal dimensions beyond the 4 becomes rather meaningless since it is difficult for us to comprehend 5 dimensional objects.

    The article was trying to make the point that a digital display of the information does not communicate to us as humans, the depth of information that is in the signal.

    You used an audio signal for an example. The issue with an audio signal is that if we displayed it in realtime as say just frequency, it would have little meaning to us even if we could see and process the numbers screaming by. It is only when we get to hear the frequency and volume with the integrals and the derivatives to at least the 2nd and 3rd orders does it have much significance to us.

    This gets back to the underlying reason why the automotive industry has went to the effort they have in dashboard design and the trend for striving to emulate an analog display on top of the digital signal processing.
    Would you rather see a dial or a graph than a window with digits flying? Reality is that the use case is different. If I want true precision I want to see all the digits that represent the sample, I prefer a digital mike or caliper over a vernier or dial, but when I am driving I prefer an analog tachometer and speed dial over the numeric display. Same applies if I am scanning a surface, or centering a part. I think the article got into the weeds where it got into the dynamic ranges of signal amplifiers and other stuff.

    In a simplified way looking at this problem, if I need to use the result of the display for any calculation or comparison then I want numbers, if I want to see a trend I want the visual representation of the graph or a dial.

    dee
    ;-D

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    You think that THE ARTICLE got in the weeds?


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madis Reivik View Post
    Little offtopic, but actually the simplest explanation why "analog sounds better" is true in listening music is that vinyl records are usually recorded with larger dynamics while digital stuff is compressed. Vinyls are always used at home with proper loudspeakers, but digital music is often listened trough cellphone or via cheap computer speakers. And if one uses less compression, digital via cheap loudspeakers sound even worse.
    So, its mostly decision made in recording studio, not the limitations of digital-analog.
    And this is not only my opinion but opinion of record studio engineers.
    Actually, you have the digital and vinyl recordings backward. All vinyl disks are recorded with compensation curves. The latest is RIAA (Recording Institute Association of America). The issue is that the dynamic range of sound is much greater than that allowable excursion of the recording head. The other is the treble sounds with the signal to noise ration. So to correct for these problems, the bass frequencies are attenuated while the treble is boosted. If I weren't lazy I would go get the preamplifier from the 1960's that has most of difference curves. I believe there were 4 or 5 popular curves. One for 78's and the others for 16, 33 1/3 & 45's. Probably at least one for tape machines.

    The other issue is the sound quality. Purists say the vacuum tube amps sound better than digital amps because when a vacuum tube amp is over driven, the sound gets mushy whereas with digital, overdriving causes clipping which introduces very annoying harsh, raspy sounds.

    Tom

    Edit For kicks I just looked for the number of difference equalization curves and found 16 different ones, and literally 100's more that may have been studio specific. This doesn't count tapes.
    Engineer, WPGU radio.

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    Back to Ox's article -- the author says human perception is analog.

    He's maybe half right. Most cognitive psychologists would say we're more a sort of digital-analog hybrid computer. Neurons are pretty much digital. They sum inputs and either fire or don't. But there's a whole cocktail of neurotransmitters, hormones, and other bits of chemistry that are better understood as analog.

    As for the author's intent -- pretty sure he was trying to puff up his company's new instrument displays, which apparently mimic the sort of analog displays many of us prefer. Lots of us might still prefer an old needle-type VOM to roughly check a capacitor than a digital display. Ditto a needle for car speed rather than flickering digits. Still, today's kids would probably prefer a digital time read out than watch hands . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Somehow I think something went overhead as I must'a been lookin' down...
    May have been another one of those damned truant blimps...

    Lot of that "lighter than air" s**t going around when they fergit to warsh the salad greens proper-like.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Back to Ox's article -- the author says human perception is analog.

    He's maybe half right. Most cognitive psychologists would say we're more a sort of digital-analog hybrid computer. Neurons are pretty much digital. They sum inputs and either fire or don't. But there's a whole cocktail of neurotransmitters, hormones, and other bits of chemistry that are better understood as analog.

    As for the author's intent -- pretty sure he was trying to puff up his company's new instrument displays, which apparently mimic the sort of analog displays many of us prefer. Lots of us might still prefer an old needle-type VOM to roughly check a capacitor than a digital display. Ditto a needle for car speed rather than flickering digits. Still, today's kids would probably prefer a digital time read out than watch hands . . .
    Hardly new. Digital watches were virtualizing analog hands on LCD displays since shortly after Big Bang OF such displays. That's about a whole human generation ago already. Others just drive steppers and HAVE physical "hands".

    Numbers or angular position notwithstanding, just dig the old Timex out of the memento box, carry that and yer handheld electronic out and about on any bright sunny day...

    Guess which one you can still SEE AT ALL.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    You think that THE ARTICLE got in the weeds?


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Yup, me think so. And the reason is if he just wanted to talk about how we perceive the results, then the whole talk about gains and digital amps, and other mumbo jumbo is irrelevant. As I said Numbers, vs dials and graphs, have different use cases. No matter how the value was acquired. Not trying to be a negative asshole here, I just find that sometimes these articles throw up a lot of chaff and the real intent gets obfuscated.

    Back to the other point, I was making, if I am measuring something for a layout, I want the numbers, if I am centering a part in a 4 jaw I want a good old dial indicator with a needle that will stay put once centered, not some number thing, sure I can use a digital DTI but sure as hell it is less convenient. And why would I care in either case if there was an analog or digital component in the path in either case? I only care about the end result.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Ditto a needle for car speed rather than flickering digits.
    My wife has a digital speedometer in her car (Toyota) and it doesn't "flicker". Steady changes as with an analogue. Personally I prefer the analogue in mine but I think much of the for and against is just habit.

    Analogue or digital preferable? To me it depends entirely on the situation.

    Just thought of something. I rely more on my GPS with regard to speed and it's digital

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    I have been struck by the perception thing since I was very young.

    A typical time piece (from my era ;-) in example.

    The device takes an analog input from a flexed metal spring or other continuous force, even pouring water.

    The "clock" Converts the signal to precisely metered incremental outputs. "tics and tocs".

    And then the "works" are put to task to display the several output increments of seconds, minutes and hours, as discrete digital forms, but in a way that we humans perceive as continuous i.e. analog.

    Of course the careful observer notes that the second hand "jumps" from second to second, often with a small announcing stutter between the pronounced movement. Also obvious is the appearance of the "cuck-oo". It happens,... or it doesn't. Entirely digital! A cat in a box.

    Now the "clock works" of a position indicating device often is as simple as a class 1,2, or 3 lever. nothing more. But language and familiarity try to pull similarity from items that have little.
    Position always needs the element of time to complete the description. Objects such as mountains and stars are much too ephemeral to go without.

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    I must defend my honor!

    I was merely correcting and error by Reivik about equalizations, nothing more. Actually I learned from that. I didn't realize there were that my different curves.

    And I was not the one to mention Nyquist which was also irrelevant to the topic.

    The referenced article was quite clear, what goes around comes around.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    The referenced article was quite clear, what goes around comes around.

    Tom
    On reading the article (link) a second time what I got was a new product line getting some PR.

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    Does this mean I can get digital replacements for the meters on my kwm-2 and 75s-1???

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    KWM-2, my god that thing is antique! Collins did well when they designed that.

    Couple that with a KW-1 and a National NC300 and you have a nice station.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    KWM-2, my god that thing is antique! Collins did well when they designed that.

    Couple that with a KW-1 and a National NC300 and you have a nice station.

    Tom
    Nah it's accompanied by a tx4/r4a, 756 pro2, and a L4b. Lol of course, Sandy took my tower with my force 12 c3s so I've been off the air for a while. She even took my g5rv for Christ's sake!.

    The Collins has the waters rejection filter on it. And the 75s-1 is hooked into it so I can operate true split...hell I can even listen on different bands, ah 60s technology.

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    Must have broke your heart seeing those antennas come down.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I'll take digital. It sounds the same to me with the hearing that I have....

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I had a friend, died too soon a couple of years ago, and he was hysterical about sound. Had loud speakers that IMO cost a fortune. To me it sounded the same as when I played the same at home. We both liked Kate Bush.
    Kate Bush - Wuthering Heights - Official Music Video - Version 1 - YouTube

    I got an LP back in the 60s from my mother-in-law (Lee Hazlewood - Lee Hazlewood - Trouble Is A Lonesome Town - YouTube ) and had it copied to a CD not so long ago so I could play it when driving. The LP and CD sound the same - to me anyway


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