Why do you need a 3a GO gauge to measure a plated thread? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I wrote "Plated can for example be galvanized, chromed etc. (plating that adds) or electro polishing (SS) that removes."
    right Gordo, you did indeed. no conflict is desired on my part, I just want to make it clear to those reading here to learn, that, no, plating CAN'T by definition be; "for example... electropolishing that removes".

    plating isn't usually used to describe galvanizing either, a term usually used for a hot dipped coating of Zinc on iron or steel, resulting in a highly variable, but thick coating (particularly on male threads), generally .002-.010". heavy electroplate of Zinc can be as good, but it's usually spec'ed as a minimum coating thickness, as in "Zinc electroplate, .003" min" if it is to provide real protection.

    things that are just "zinc plated" such as cheap hardware, where the coating thickness could be as little as .0001 (or less?) are usually not referred to as galvanized to distinguish them from the above.

    hot dipped fasteners are usually mated with special nuts that are tapped out after hot dipping to an oversize (by .010-.015"?) female thread to accommodate the coating on the male threads.

    to get back to the OP's question, what is the piece plated with? to what thickness? on both male and female threads? these factors could influence a decision to use a particular tolerance range, and in the end any combo of go/nogo just gets you to what someone thinks is an optimum range. because of the many variables, (some outlined above) there is no hard "rule" for plated parts, I don't think..or at least shouldn't be

    somewhat long winded, repetitive, pedantic, and helpful to some, I hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    right Gordo, you did indeed. no conflict is desired on my part, I just want to make it clear to those reading here to learn, that, no, plating CAN'T by definition be; "for example... electropolishing that removes".

    plating isn't usually used to describe galvanizing either, a term usually used for a hot dipped coating of Zinc on iron or steel, resulting in a highly variable, but thick coating (particularly on male threads), generally .002-.010". heavy electroplate of Zinc can be as good, but it's usually spec'ed as a minimum coating thickness, as in "Zinc electroplate, .003" min" if it is to provide real protection.

    things that are just "zinc plated" such as cheap hardware, where the coating thickness could be as little as .0001 (or less?) are usually not referred to as galvanized to distinguish them from the above.

    hot dipped fasteners are usually mated with special nuts that are tapped out after hot dipping to an oversize (by .010-.015"?) female thread to accommodate the coating on the male threads.

    to get back to the OP's question, what is the piece plated with? to what thickness? on both male and female threads? these factors could influence a decision to use a particular tolerance range, and in the end any combo of go/nogo just gets you to what someone thinks is an optimum range. because of the many variables, (some outlined above) there is no hard "rule" for plated parts, I don't think..or at least shouldn't be

    somewhat long winded, repetitive, pedantic, and helpful to some, I hope.

    "somewhat long winded, repetitive, pedantic, and helpful to some, I hope."


    Add "confusing" to that kido and you have it pretty much covered. Where have you learned and or read what you post on thread plating?

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    My curiosity has been relived and always in the hope I can learn something new.

    http://www.fastener-world.com.tw/0_m..._164_E_375.pdf

    Calculating Pre Plate Screw Threads & Gages

    Dimensional effects of Plating external threads

    Guide to Finishes & Plating - Fasteners, Screws, Nuts, Bolts, Washers, Pins

    I'm NOT trying to start a "which is better metric or inch" but the metric thread tolerance system seem better for dealing with "surface treatment". Now I've managed to avoid the word "plating"

    http://f-m-s.dk/THREAD%20PITCH%20DIA...CE%20AREAS.pdf


    Added:
    If I had a hat I'd take it off to cyanidekid for that "like"
    You may have noticed too that I don't appreciated my name being "changed".
    Last edited by Gordon B. Clarke; 12-02-2018 at 04:29 AM.

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    If memory serves, only the GO side of the tolerance band changes on A threads (the NOGO for B threads) with tolerance classes. A 2A and 3A NOGO are the same, nominally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai Kendall View Post
    If memory serves, only the GO side of the tolerance band changes on A threads (the NOGO for B threads) with tolerance classes. A 2A and 3A NOGO are the same, nominally.
    If you look at UNIFIED INCH SCREW THREADS in the link you'll see that your memory is correct

    http://f-m-s.dk/THREAD%20PITCH%20DIA...CE%20AREAS.pdf

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    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/metrology/2a-thread-limits-335258/?highlight=thread


    Near as I can tell from the reaction of the linked thread, hardly anyone has seen this used before.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/metrology/2a-thread-limits-335258/?highlight=thread


    Near as I can tell from the reaction of the linked thread, hardly anyone has seen this used before.


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    Ox
    This is where the metric thread system IMO has an advantage. There are thread pitch diameter tolerances to make coating easier.

    A few are listed but there are many.

    http://f-m-s.dk/1.03.pdf

    An H or h before coating and you're in trouble.

    ISO Metric Thread Tolerance Tables - Accu(R)

    There is in fact an ISO standard just for galvanized threads.

    Personally I don't get why more don't measure their external and internal threads (those that make often or make many) before and after coating so they have some control over what's going on.

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    Where doo you git the idear that "inch" people don't measure their threads, nor have control over the plating process?
    Just b/c they don't reply here?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Where doo you git the idear that "inch" people don't measure their threads, nor have control over the plating process?
    Just b/c they don't reply here?


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    And where doou get that from "I don't get why more don't measure"? How much is "more" in yoor wurld?

    Controlling a plating process isn't always an exact science. BTW "always" in this context means things don't always go as planned.

    This isn't something I know just from theory. I've seen and been involved in this issue for years. It's surprising how many don't know (and that isn't me saying that nobody knows) that when coating, plating etc. adds 4x the thickness to a 60º thread and 8x to a 29º thread. OK electro polishing removes.

    I wish I had $1 for every time I've heard a shop owner say that their operators weren't smart enough to measure threads so they had to use a thread gauge. Mostly stupid shop owners that think that. I can teach it in just a few minutes.
    Do you measure your threads and if so what do you use?

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    I don't generally "measure".
    I hate dicking with wires!

    AS WELL - I have heard from others that time and again - they will make parts to mic'd threads, only to git dinged for tight threads - as mic's don't account for any anomalies in the feature.

    I use rings and plugs.

    If I have a ring that is on HIGH, and a ring that is on LOW, and the HIGH ring is pretty loose, but the LOW ring won't go, doo I need to qualify the actual size to a digital-able value just for the paperwork's sake?



    I had to make an 8.628-11 internal a few weeks ago.
    Unfortunately I had to resort to mics for that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I don't generally "measure".
    I hate dicking with wires!

    AS WELL - I have heard from others that time and again - they will make parts to mic'd threads, only to git dinged for tight threads - as mic's don't account for any anomalies in the feature.

    I use rings and plugs.

    If I have a ring that is on HIGH, and a ring that is on LOW, and the HIGH ring is pretty loose, but the LOW ring won't go, doo I need to qualify the actual size to a digital-able value just for the paperwork's sake?

    I had to make an 8.628-11 internal a few weeks ago.
    Unfortunately I had to resort to mics for that one.

    Ox
    We're not on the same page. When you mention wires that's only external threads. I don't know if Leigh will let this slide or not but there are many methods now for measuring threads. Some more expensive than others and some easier than others.

    I regard mine as easy. My hands in the video.

    YouTube

    I'd like to watch you use a larger thread gauge and estimate "wiggle".

    Changing the subject you've got me curious with 8.628-11 internal.

    If you by chance mean a 8.625-11 UNS-2B internal thread then the pitch diameter tolerance is min 8.5660 and max 8.5757. Why 8.628"? As to using a mic how did you do that?

    Measure for the sake of "paperwork"? Nope. Measure so you know where you are and that's really useful if you're making several. Most people I've seen making threads and using a thread gauge make the thread tighter than necessary. Erring on the side of caution.

    Ox, I'm on my soapbox because threads are my business
    It was even your predecessor (RJ) that put my website in PM.

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    Why 8.628" ???

    I don't know.
    It is an N44 Bearing Nut.
    (Turns out that it is 8tpi, not 11)

    I had to make a guage to make the internal to.
    I did the best that I could, but I couldn't qualify the size.

    I made the plug guage hollow to lighten it up, and only 1.5 inches long or so, so while it was an internal tool, it was actually a "ring" of sorts.

    The thread was actually several inches down a bore (very odd design for a bearing nut thread) and not sure what kind of measuring devise could have gotten down in there reliably? I would expect a Guagemaker unit to have flex if that much stick-out...

    It could have qualified the size after the part was taken out of the machine - measuring from the back side, but not much help during processing.



    "Tight" doesn't seem like erring on the side of caution to me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Why 8.628" ???

    I don't know.
    It is an N44 Bearing Nut.
    (Turns out that it is 8tpi, not 11)

    I had to make a guage to make the internal to.
    I did the best that I could, but I couldn't qualify the size.

    I made the plug guage hollow to lighten it up, and only 1.5 inches long or so, so while it was an internal tool, it was actually a "ring" of sorts.

    The thread was actually several inches down a bore (very odd design for a bearing nut thread) and not sure what kind of measuring devise could have gotten down in there reliably? I would expect a Guagemaker unit to have flex if that much stick-out...

    It could have qualified the size after the part was taken out of the machine - measuring from the back side, but not much help during processing.


    "Tight" doesn't seem like erring on the side of caution to me.

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    3 things.

    1. I'm guessing you didn't watch my video.

    2. Making a thread ring gauge seems like a good bit of work. Taking the diameter into consideration and the pitch diameter tolerance I could easily have supplied a solution and let you measure.

    3. If your customer had wanted "tight" he'd have given a 3B tolerance and not 2B. To me a good thread is in the middle of the pitch diameter tolerance, not at the top or bottom.

    http://f-m-s.dk/THREAD%20PITCH%20DIA...CE%20AREAS.pdf

    At the moment I have a customer that wants to measure an internal thread (just under 1") at a depth of almost 2". No problem.

    If you run into a thread measurement problem or task just ask. Either I say I can't help or I make you an offer. Whether you accept or not is of course up to you.

    For over 3 years now I've gotten a number of aerospace companies (in several countries including the USA) as customers and as you probably know, they ain't easy to please.

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    1) I watched the first half, and scrolled ahead in the bottom viewer to see if much changed.

    2) I must'a missed where you had ability to measure an 8+" thread 6 (8? 10?) inches down a bore?

    3) Well, if you hear of a local steel mill crashing and burning, maybe .002" PD was to blame?

    I didn't realize that the part had a thread in it 'till I was ready to run it. It was a one-off.
    Pretty sure that the neighboring shop that I was running it for didn't realize it either as they were a bit surprised at the bill when I got done - since I had to make a guage as well.

    All the cool toys in the world don't help if you don't have it right when you need it.
    For your toy to work, I would have needed 8" (?) extensions and you would have had to somehow supply a custom set-up ring?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    1) I watched the first half, and scrolled ahead in the bottom viewer to see if much changed.

    2) I must'a missed where you had ability to measure an 8+" thread 6 (8? 10?) inches down a bore?

    3) Well, if you hear of a local steel mill crashing and burning, maybe .002" PD was to blame?

    I didn't realize that the part had a thread in it 'till I was ready to run it. It was a one-off.
    Pretty sure that the neighboring shop that I was running it for didn't realize it either as they were a bit surprised at the bill when I got done - since I had to make a guage as well.

    All the cool toys in the world don't help if you don't have it right when you need it.
    For your toy to work, I would have needed 8" (?) extensions and you would have had to somehow supply a custom set-up ring?

    Think Eh!
    Ox
    So much for trying to have an intelligent discussion. Keep doing what you do. I won't disturb you any more.

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    3A) Who said that the tol was class 2?


    3B) I was actually thinking on this, and I am going to disagree with you on this.

    A thread is generally a +0 -X tol feature. Similar in use to a slip fit tol.
    The engineer really wants the fit to be as close as possible, but in efforts to have it "manufacturable" he needs to put all of his tol on the minimum material condition side as anything on the other side could be an interference with the mating part - depending on the actual size of that mating feature.

    So, in all honesty, a thread, same as a slip fit, is best @ maximum material condition, not means.



    4) I don't see that there is any lack of inteligence on my end of the discussion, save of course for the spelling....
    But then - that would likely always be the case eh?


    Not trying to argue with you, but not sure what you think that your toy 5 time zones and one ocean away is going to help me with a special thread when I'm ready to make chips?

    Not degrading your toy in any way, but - unless I missed something, it's not able to measure >8" PD @ 8" down hole, here, now.

    ???


    I will likely keep dooing this for 15-20 more years.
    Good Lord willing / creek rise and all that....


    Not that any of this has anything to doo with Class 3 GO spec's after plate...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    So much for trying to have an intelligent discussion. Keep doing what you do. I won't disturb you any more.

    Fair enough.
    I watched the last half of the vid.
    Still don't know if that could have reached on the end of my 24" calipers or not?
    But maybe.

    The first 5 minutes just seemed to sit and spin....
    I lost interest....


    So - just for shit's-n'giggles sakes, let's say that I had this same feature to make (and didn't already have the guage made) and I knew the issue a cpl of weeks ahead...

    What would it take in $ to fetch what you are pawning?
    Would all of it be in stock normally?

    The jaws on my 24" are 5.4mm thick.



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    Last edited by Ox; 03-02-2019 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Purchase?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    3A) Who said that the tol was class 2?


    3B) I was actually thinking on this, and I am going to disagree with you on this.

    A thread is generally a +0 -X tol feature. Similar in use to a slip fit tol.
    The engineer really wants the fit to be as close as possible, but in efforts to have it "manufacturable" he needs to put all of his tol on the minimum material condition side as anything on the other side could be an interference with the mating part - depending on the actual size of that mating feature.

    So, in all honesty, a thread, same as a slip fit, is best @ maximum material condition, not means.



    4) I don't see that there is any lack of inteligence on my end of the discussion, save of course for the spelling....
    But then - that would likely always be the case eh?


    Not trying to argue with you, but not sure what you think that your toy 5 time zones and one ocean away is going to help me with a special thread when I'm ready to make chips?

    Not degrading your toy in any way, but - unless I missed something, it's not able to measure >8" PD @ 8" down hole, here, now.

    ???


    I will likely keep dooing this for 15-20 more years.
    Good Lord willing / creek rise and all that....


    Not that any of this has anything to doo with Class 3 GO spec's after plate…

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    The tolerance you gave was a 2. If no tolerance is given 2A and 2B is implicit. At least as per standard.

    Pitch diameter tolerances are shown in this:
    http://f-m-s.dk/THREAD%20PITCH%20DIA...CE%20AREAS.pdf

    If you believe you know more about threads than me then good for you. 2 of those I know best when it comes to threads and tolerances are both Americans. We have respect for each other.

    You just don't get calling my product a toy I find offensive. You'd be surprised at who some of my customers are.

    You're right in one thing. Special thread "problems" require special solutions and you are a continent away. Bet you can't solve those problems either by snapping your fingers. For something "tailor made" it rarely takes more than max 3 weeks.

    Re "measure >8" PD @ 8" down hole" then do some research on the size of the threads Finnish companies make for lumber tools. Yeps, I have customers in Finland too. So far the largest I've made for a thread was 1 meter.

    As for not being able to see large thread measurement on any of my videos then I had hoped people could see that the size didn't matter. I have 2 things that so far I can't do. Threads with a pitch less than 0.5mm/48 TPI and an internal thread under M6/1/4". With small threads most just use taps.

    Don't know if you know this or not but pitch diameter tolerance on internal "standard" thread is roughly always 30% more than that of the mating external thread. Tolerances for threads are large - use them.

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    I don't recall ever giving a tol at all?

    Toy = tool.
    Not intended to be a dig.
    For those of us that use "tools" all day long, they can be fun and/or bragging rights = "toys".
    If you want to git all thin skinned over that - then that must be the first time you've gotten that way on here!


    I'm really not researching Finnish Lumber Processors...



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    Not to change the subject or anything

    but thread gages are intended to be used to check for functional ability , thread wires are used to check the pd as they cant check anything else.
    you still need a comparator for checking thread form and root rads.

    while you can check your thread via wires it may not go on the go gages or be tight for a few reasons.
    the biggest reason is guys run too big of a root rad or it breaks down during cutting. a thread gage has that built in so if your root rad is over sized it will be tight or not go.

    other things are run out if your PD runs out too much you'll be hitting the od of your thread making it tight in some spots.(basically your thread depth on one side of the part is way out to the other side of the part.
    I still use wires and thread gages everyday as well as checking the root rad and the profile on the comparator. with out doing so you cant guarantee your threads are to spec via wires OR gages

    now on work where there is no tolerance on roots profile etc etc

    try to check a J thread( ie specific Larger root rad mainly in aerospace work) with a normal thread gage. it wont work even though everything is perfect on the thread. a J-thread gage has a bigger minor dia on the gage itself too allow for the bigger rad than a normal thread gage thats the only difference.


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