Wilson Tukon vs Wilson Superficial
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default Wilson Tukon vs Wilson Superficial

    I'm talking old equipment, none of the fancy new electronic gizmo's.

    I am looking at two testers for some case hardened parts I am making. I started making a couple and wound up with a whole product family. I have a great heat treater who is willing and able to do testing for me, but I would really like to be able to test occasionally, whenever needed, without having to make multiple trips (an hour each way) to the heat treater.

    So I am looking at a used Wilson Superficial and a Wilson Tukon.

    I understand from literature that the Wilson Superficial works just like my Wilson Rockwell, only a lighter load, with less penetration.

    I sorta understand that the Tukon uses a cross sectioned sample that would then provide depth and hardness of case. I do not exactly understand how the microscope/measurement arrangement works, and I have not been able to find a manual online.

    I am going to go inspect each of these today, can you provide specific things to look out for? Things that may be missing to look for? problems or issues to look out for?

    The Wilson Tukon is a MO model and the Wilson Superficial is a 3JS

    thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Geneva Illinois USA
    Posts
    6,479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2854
    Likes (Received)
    2566

    Default

    The superficial is for measurements for thin materials where the depth of the "C" scale indenter would be affected by the support anvil. I have not found a recommended switchover from one test method to another. Tests like this would be most useful for production and quality monitoring. Tukon testing is more for very detailed hardness evaluation and can be used to evaluation individual grains for harness. Most often the part to be evaluated in mounted in a metallurgical mount, polished through diamond laps and then measured. More for R&D than production.

    Tom

  3. Likes sfriedberg liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    14,227
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2631
    Likes (Received)
    3952

    Default

    The superficial will test the hardness of the "skin" without penetrating through it, it is what most shops use for testing case hardness. If you want to test normal through hardened parts you can convert the superficial scales to C scale for an approximation of the C scale hardness. I have a standard and a superficial tester, some experimenting tells me the conversion tables are very close to accurate.
    I've never seen a Tukon tester outside of a heat treat facility or a metallurgy lab, FWIW. You have to cut the part apart to test it, that makes it more than I want to get into here for what I have done so I've never investigated any further.

    Take the top cover off and look at the mechanism for abuse or damage, see that it all works smoothly. If the damper dashpot is empty of oil that's probably because the tester was on it's side at some time in the past, and that's simple to refill. See if the seller has a test block he can run a test on to check calibration. Look for accessories, indenters, etc.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Well, I wound up buying both.

    Should have them home next week.

  6. Likes Ray Behner, toolsteel liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Brunswick Oh USA
    Posts
    4,678
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5403
    Likes (Received)
    2811

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Well, I wound up buying both.

    Should have them home next week.
    Nathaniel,
    I'm beginning to worry about you. You're turning into.....me!

  8. Likes Fal Grunt liked this post
  9. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Behner View Post
    Nathaniel,
    I'm beginning to worry about you. You're turning into.....me!
    There are certainly worse things to turn into!

    How have you been Ray? I drove by your road the other day on my way to a wedding unfortunately.

  10. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    974
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    146

    Default

    the superficial wilson tester we had at work was for checking tinplate. It had a diamond anvil and used 1/16 steel balls for the penetrator. Plate was about .011 thick. The test blocks looked to be a type of bronze.

    Dave

  11. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Well, I got them both home and started playing with them. The Superficial is in really nice shape, works well, but is not accurate as I would like. I've gone through the manuals suggestions, I may have to do a more thorough cleaning and tear down to see what the issue is. It is usually a point or two off on readings based on my test blocks, which translates to 2 or 3 RC error. Not the end of the world since it seems to be consistently wrong.

    The Tukon... well this is a whole new world. I cannot find any documentation, so I am generally at a loss to how to use it.

    I have a few lab samples from some parts that I had cut up and sampled. I am trying to use them as a frame of reference to get started.

    The first thing I need to figure out is how to correctly apply the load. This tester is not like a JR or JS where you have a dial that you spply a load then release.

    The second thing I need to figure out is how to correctly read the dial. To measure the sample, you turn a dial along a graduated scale. The graduated scale, 0-10,seems to be 1mm at 10x. The "box" as I will call it, currently has a calibration factor of 0.4800, if I turn the scale to um and traverse from 0 to 10, I get 480.

    I believe this calibration factor would change depending whether you measure in HV or HK or um.

    I suppose I will keep both. Not choice finds, but both are usable to a degree for my internal experimentation. I thought about returning the Tukon, but having a 50x microscope that I can measure with, would sure be handy from time to time. Buying the necessary tools to make samples and lap them will likely cost more than the testers themselves. And given what my heat treater charges to do this service, I doubt I will do it very often!!!

  12. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I'm talking old equipment, none of the fancy new electronic gizmo's.

    I am looking at two testers for some case hardened parts I am making. I started making a couple and wound up with a whole product family. I have a great heat treater who is willing and able to do testing for me, but I would really like to be able to test occasionally, whenever needed, without having to make multiple trips (an hour each way) to the heat treater.

    So I am looking at a used Wilson Superficial and a Wilson Tukon.

    I understand from literature that the Wilson Superficial works just like my Wilson Rockwell, only a lighter load, with less penetration.

    I sorta understand that the Tukon uses a cross sectioned sample that would then provide depth and hardness of case. I do not exactly understand how the microscope/measurement arrangement works, and I have not been able to find a manual online.

    I am going to go inspect each of these today, can you provide specific things to look out for? Things that may be missing to look for? problems or issues to look out for?

    The Wilson Tukon is a MO model and the Wilson Superficial is a 3JS

    thanks!
    personally I have not used each tester, but work with case harden parts on a daily basis.

    from my experience over 30 years, superficial hardness testing is done on section pc and mounted on a mount
    polished and etched. the micro hardness tester should have a micro scope attached to visual at a magnification eg 100x 500x
    the sample is etch so that the case hardness is visible. the scale is to measure the depth of case visually and to
    take reading with the tester called micro hardness transverse @ 50 effective case depth.
    for example if the effective (not total) case depth is .030 inch depth, starting from .003 from the surface it will measure the hardness of the case depth and until the reading reach 50 HRc (converted from superficial) is the effective case depth.
    this done to measure case depth and hardness near or at the surface.
    if there is no requirement (specification) for this and is only case hardness is required a N15 micro hardness test can verify the surface for a hardness verification. it is use instead of HRc test for the same reason, thin case depth and indentation is very small.

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 1953chevB View Post
    personally I have not used each tester, but work with case harden parts on a daily basis.

    from my experience over 30 years, superficial hardness testing is done on section pc and mounted on a mount
    polished and etched. the micro hardness tester should have a micro scope attached to visual at a magnification eg 100x 500x
    the sample is etch so that the case hardness is visible. the scale is to measure the depth of case visually and to
    take reading with the tester called micro hardness transverse @ 50 effective case depth.
    for example if the effective (not total) case depth is .030 inch depth, starting from .003 from the surface it will measure the hardness of the case depth and until the reading reach 50 HRc (converted from superficial) is the effective case depth.
    this done to measure case depth and hardness near or at the surface.
    if there is no requirement (specification) for this and is only case hardness is required a N15 micro hardness test can verify the surface for a hardness verification. it is use instead of HRc test for the same reason, thin case depth and indentation is very small.
    I appreciate your input!

    The process, and theory, I think I understand pretty well. It is the literal use of the machine that I am having a hard time figuring out. For a Rockwell or Superficial tester, you turn the part up and engage the load until the dial is at zero. Then you release the main load, wait till it stops, and reset. Then you have your reading.

    The Tukon, I can't understand how you know where and how much you applying the load? There is a load lever on the side like a normal tester, but there is not a gauge to know when to stop or where to stop?

    The next issue with the process is knowing what the results mean. Today I applied what I think is a light load, which left an indentation. With the 10x magnifier (no idea what the actual magnification is then?) the indentation is three graduations on the scale, which reads 147 HK.

    So I need to figure out:

    the load application
    the magnification
    the calibration factor (related to magnification?)


    Something else I am struggling to wrap my head around. If the HK measurement comes from the size of the indentation, the larger the indentation the larger the number. However, the larger the number, the harder the work piece. Which seems counter intuitive. With Rockwell C scale, typically if you have a soft piece, you have a huge indentation. If you have a hard piece, you have a very small indentation. Any comments on this? Am I missing a step for interpreting the reading that the machine gives?

  14. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I appreciate your input!

    The process, and theory, I think I understand pretty well. It is the literal use of the machine that I am having a hard time figuring out. For a Rockwell or Superficial tester, you turn the part up and engage the load until the dial is at zero. Then you release the main load, wait till it stops, and reset. Then you have your reading.

    The Tukon, I can't understand how you know where and how much you applying the load? There is a load lever on the side like a normal tester, but there is not a gauge to know when to stop or where to stop?

    The next issue with the process is knowing what the results mean. Today I applied what I think is a light load, which left an indentation. With the 10x magnifier (no idea what the actual magnification is then?) the indentation is three graduations on the scale, which reads 147 HK.

    So I need to figure out:

    the load application
    the magnification
    the calibration factor (related to magnification?)


    Something else I am struggling to wrap my head around. If the HK measurement comes from the size of the indentation, the larger the indentation the larger the number. However, the larger the number, the harder the work piece. Which seems counter intuitive. With Rockwell C scale, typically if you have a soft piece, you have a huge indentation. If you have a hard piece, you have a very small indentation. Any comments on this? Am I missing a step for interpreting the reading that the machine gives?
    which models do you have ?
    can you take pictures
    superficial load are as an example .3 KG , .5 KG & higher eg very light loads, depending on the models are similar to a microscope to change magnification
    it has different power, 100x, 200x manually switch it, the new one are all electronic.

  15. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default vickers

    this is a new model Vickers, but its, the same concept

    HV 100 Vickers Hardness - YouTube

  16. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

  17. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    The tester is marked Wilson Tukon Tester model MO.

    I have the machine currently setup with 500 grams, but can add up to a total of 1100 grams. I believe 500 grams to be correct with the Knoop hardness tester. The indenter is a Knoop.

    The microscope objectives are marked 10x, 20x, and 50x. The Filar micrometer is not marked with a magnification, so I don't know how the math works out.

    img_5468.jpgimg_5469.jpgimg_5470.jpgAttachment 297221Attachment 297227Attachment 297228

  18. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    Here is a chart for 500 grams load.
    machine should have weight hanger=200 g, weights 100, 200, 500, combination of 200+100,200=500g
    this machine operates like the old style Rockwell hardness tester , the company that I down loaded the chart has one of these for sale
    I highly recommend to contact them for a copy of the manual , if they will do it.
    with trying wrap my my head on lenses, the magnification is based on objective x lense power, I sure there info out there.
    it base on microscope data.chart.jpg

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Your link or upload unfortunately did not work?

    Yes it has a weight hanger which I have currently setup for 500g. (200 hanger, 200, 100) I also have an additional 500g weight and an additional 100g weight.

    I found a brochure that states "three par-focalled objectives are furnished for magnifications of approximately 93.75x, 187.5x, 375x and 750x." I can't make those numbers work with the 10x, 20x, and 50x that I have. Though it is possible those are not original.

    All the brochure says about using the tester is:
    "Automatic Test Cycle
    Application, time of application and removal of the test load are automatic. This feature eliminates the possible manipulation of these variables assuring standardization of the test. The importance of an automatic test cycle is particularly critical below test loads of 500 grams-force."

  20. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    here is the correct link
    United Service Company Inc

  21. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Medina OH
    Posts
    2,322
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    I gave them a call, very friendly, said one of their service folks would give me a call.

    Bonus is I would like to find the extra weights for my Superficial so I can measure 30N and 45N, as well as a handle, since the morons moving it broke the handle. The woman I spoke with on the phone said they have been servicing Wilson testers for 40 years and have quite a few spares and parts.

    She said if they have a manual, it should be no problem to send me a copy.

  22. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    488
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    176
    Likes (Received)
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I gave them a call, very friendly, said one of their service folks would give me a call.

    Bonus is I would like to find the extra weights for my Superficial so I can measure 30N and 45N, as well as a handle, since the morons moving it broke the handle. The woman I spoke with on the phone said they have been servicing Wilson testers for 40 years and have quite a few spares and parts.

    She said if they have a manual, it should be no problem to send me a copy.
    glad it helped, keep me informed how it all go's


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •