0.7mm not an option for metric pitch on 10EE?
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    Default 0.7mm not an option for metric pitch on 10EE?

    I'm going to thread an M4x0.7mm thread, but have now realized the lathe doesn't have that pitch option. Have any of you guys run into a similar scenario not specific to this size though?

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    Default .7mm threads

    A square dial machine with the right change gears should able cut .7mm threads.


    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    I'm going to thread an M4x0.7mm thread, but have now realized the lathe doesn't have that pitch option. Have any of you guys run into a similar scenario not specific to this size though?

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    It's a square dial (1980) but I guess I don't have the right gears. I'm assuming with a different gear set there'd also be a different chart to go with it?

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    Contact American Machine and Gear (Zahnrad Kopf here on the forum). I purchased a set from him and they work beautifully. Link is below to the store.

    Monarch 10EE Square Dial Metric Change Gear Kit

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    I remember it takes a 24t gear on the end train, I think there are 2 optional gears for the I/M to cut all other metric threads, anyway, one of my machines came with extra gears. There is another thread or two about this some years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    I'm going to thread an M4x0.7mm thread, but have now realized the lathe doesn't have that pitch option. Have any of you guys run into a similar scenario not specific to this size though?
    Just to clarify, you have a 10EE with the inch/metric gear box, right?

    As has been noted already the inch only gear box will cut a metric pitch of 0.7mm, you use the 70 tooth stud gear (in conjunction with the 127/60 tooth transposing gear) and set the gear box for 40 TPI.

    I once looked at the metric pitches available with the I/M gear box to see what metric pitches it had in common with the transposing gear/ change gear set-up that I have for my inch-only 10EE. I see that 0.7mm is one the metric pitches the I/M gear box does not offer.

    I was interested in donie's comment that Monarch did have additional change gears enabling an inch/metric 10EE to cut additional metric pitches.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Just to clarify, you have a 10EE with the inch/metric gear box, right?

    As has been noted already the inch only gear box will cut a metric pitch of 0.7mm, you use the 70 tooth stud gear (in conjunction with the 127/60 tooth transposing gear) and set the gear box for 40 TPI.

    I once looked at the metric pitches available with the I/M gear box to see what metric pitches it had in common with the transposing gear/ change gear set-up that I have for my inch-only 10EE. I see that 0.7mm is one the metric pitches the I/M gear box does not offer.

    I was interested in donie's comment that Monarch did have additional change gears enabling an inch/metric 10EE to cut additional metric pitches.

    David
    Good to know David, thanks.

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    If thread not long, die or tap is cheaper than gear.

    Correct notation, by the way, is M 4. Note pitch only, if not regular. Alternatively one indicates the series II through VIII. Example M 13 × 0,75 or ISO III M 13. Also, metric figures are with comma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanola View Post
    ...Correct notation, by the way, is M 4. Note pitch only, if not regular. Alternatively
    one indicates the series II through VIII. Example M 13 × 0,75 or ISO III M 13...
    While I agree that in a "pure" metric world what you state is true but in North America we're much more used to
    representing a thread by a diameter and pitch--it's just what we're used to. When detailing a metric thread it's a
    simple thing to note both diameter and pitch and it reduces the chance for errors. In other words, it doesn't hurt
    anything if you show it that way...

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    The .07 mm thread is used on 6mm OD and smaller, I have not had to cut that one.
    The Monarch "Blue Lathe" brochure, about 1984 says in regards to metric threads that two stud gears are interchanged to cover the full range of metric threads. Not exactly clear, but the same can be done to cut decimal leads-similar to threads, but decimal inch pitch.

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    Interesting info guys, I appreciate it!

    Yes, my 10EE is an I/M machine (with ELSR, for what it's worth).

    Since it was a fairly short thread (~1/4" long) and going into a fairly loosely fitting custom thing, I just used the 0.688mm pitch and called it good. I cringed inside, but didn't have any other options on hand. Well, I suppose besides setting up and programming the Hardinge CHNC to do it... screw that, this wasn't mission critical. Single point was really the way to go as I really needed to get as close as possible to the shoulder. Wasn't really much room radially for a relief groove, as it had a hole in it very close to minor size. Made one LH and one RH stud, in brass.

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    I'm going to follow up on this and say if this pc were fitting in a normal tapped hole, with a decent tap, held firmly on location (tap not "walking" or otherwise cutting oversize), I would have done it differently. But, these ended up having to be custom pcs as the female counterpart was quite a bit oversize due to..?.. tap runout maybe? Dunno. They were sent to me to fix. Aka, make a couple pcs of custom hardware to fit it since normal stuff was loose enough to about fall in the hole, let alone provide any thread engagement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    The .07 mm thread is used on 6mm OD and smaller
    Already an error occurring. We write 0,7.

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    Writing errors are easy to do unless you are a tech writer, last one of those was banned.

    "Yes, my 10EE is an I/M machine (with ELSR, for what it's worth). "

    Ha, Ha! dude you have shown your set up with a funk aftermarket drive, that is why your ELSR does not function, and why you have threading problems.

    I do understand, that most here have not operated a proper functioning drive on a Monarch ee, the drives dynamic brake is critical to the metric thread function.
    Keep in mind, the leadscrew on the ee does not kickout with a single tooth clutch like other toolroom lathes, the leadscrew remains engaged. So, the dynamic brake, brings the spindle to a repeatable stop set with the ELSR, When the spindle trips, it will come to a full stop in about a turn at normal threading speeds.

    This is a method that is easy on the ee.

    Adjust the ELSR so the tool stops at a shoulder at the end of a thread, keeping in mind to add extra if you are running the tool in at an angle.

    No relief groove needed, pay attention to the machine, when the ELSR trips the spindle, you withdraw the tool in that last turn, to perfectly fade out the thread every time. Exactly the same threading to the bottom of a blind hole, no relief groove needed!

    Working in hydraulics, I have cut a massive amount of screw threads on alot of machines, I cant think of a better set up.

    two left hand threads "1 acme" on an arbor for the Delta 12/14 table saw

    If your drive does not function like it should, the only alternative is using the thread dial, and rolling the machine back to the mark at the start of the thread, I will explain that, for those that havnt used that method, works well but just takes more time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    Ha, Ha! dude you have shown your set up with a funk aftermarket drive, that is why your ELSR does not function, and why you have threading problems.
    Who said my ELSR wasn't functional (or that I was having trouble threading? More-so the lack of selection I had with pitches...)? My ELSR is in fact functional. And it works great! Could probably be better with a more industrial drive though. But, good enough for when I do choose to use it. Most of the time I just don't use it, since MOST of the time I'm threading into a groove, and I'm not in fear of crashing into a shoulder.

    I currently have the BEEL drive, but several yrs ago I had also picked up a 5hp AC invert-duty motor (0-120Hz) and an automation-direct GS3 drive for it also. Haven't done anything regarding the DC to AC swap, but I do have the parts to do so. Not sure if I ever will. The BEEL drive is only able to push my machine to ~1800rpm (out of 4000rpm), but what I like about the current setup is all original machine functions are still functional, and in an original manner.

    There is a thread somewhere of someone putting in a Duratherm (spelling?) drive, etc, but ends up with essentially 2 speed pots to control speed and fwd/rvrs... sorry, not for me. I like the original functionality and ergonomics of the machine.

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    Pianoman-

    I hope I'm not the only guy who thought he could chase any popular metric thread pitch after buying a 10EE inch/metric lathe. I didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to the metric part of the feed/thread chart on my machine until I needed an M38x0.8 thread for a B&L microscope lens adapter. As you can see from the picture below, the closest metric choice is a pitch of 0.81mm:
    i-m-thread-feed-chart.jpg

    I was surprised and disappointed to discover this shortcoming. And then I noticed several other fine-pitch metric threads were also not available: no exact matches for 0.400mm, 0.450mm, 0.600mm, and 0.700mm (I purposely use decimal points and not commas here, it is easier on my eyes and better in Excel spreadsheets).

    I was about to go with the 0.81mm choice when I started thinking outside the box -- Hey, what about near-miss Imperial threads? I did some conversions and discovered an English thread of 32 TPI is almost perfect at 0.7938mm (less than half the error of the closest metric choice of 0.81mm). The error that 32TPI presents is less than 1%, so for short threaded sections like my adapter (< 10 threads) it works very well.

    This kind of thinking works for your 0.7mm problem too -- choosing the English thread of 36TPI is a better choice than either the 0.688mm or the 0.718mm choices you get in metric mode. 36TPI is 0.7056mm, only 0.8% wrong. Your choice of 0.688mm was twice as bad at 1.7% wrong; the high-side choice of 0.718mm would be even worse at about 2.6% wrong.

    So thank you, your thread kickstarted me to type all the thread/feed data from the my 10EE chart into an Excel spreadsheet, and when I get done creating some cross-reference charts maybe I'll post the file. If anybody else cares, that is; I suspect I/M machines aren't too populous.

    Jim

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    I get it now, 88 keys on a piano...

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    Look at this thread. .8 uses a 40 tooth stud gear and .7 uses a 70 tooth stud gear. This is with the transposing gear setup. I hadn’t looked at the in/metric lathe. Unfortunate they didn’t include these typical pitches.

    John

    Metric threading gears - 10EE square dial

    For an I/M you could change out the stud gear as necessary to get the pitches you want. Either ZK or I could make it for you.
    Last edited by bll230; 06-12-2019 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Added bit about I/M

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    If its not too long put it on 36 TPI and it will work

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    Jimbojet, actually the 88 is not referencing keys, but is quite a coincidence! '88 is when I was born.


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