10EE (#15491) 220v Powering Checklist

Skywalker · Mar 19, 2019

I've sifted and sorted through all the information that my brain can hold.
I think I have a grasp of what's needed to power this on 220 3 phase.
Give me reassurance, please.

1) The motor tag confirms 220/440 is an option. Simple enough.

2) I checked the starting coil/contactor to confirm it was 440, and needs replaced.

3) I checked the overload heaters and confirmed that H1367 is undersized for 220, and needs replaced
by a H1372B or H1373B

**Note also my shop is supplied with 3ph via a 15hp VFD rated at 40 amps. 13.2 should not be a problem considering the
derating for single phase input. But, I may have read that these old motors prefer RFC over VFD's...
Any problems feeding it with a modern AC drive? Should I use L1 and L3 as real phases, and L2 for the created?

Thanks in advance,
Luke

Crazymonkey · Mar 19, 2019

Seems like you have a handle on everything for the most part, I just have two things to add.
One is to make sure the motor is actually wired for 220V using the “connection diagram” on the side. The motor can be operated on 220 or 440, but it just needs some wires switched around for each one. Seeing that you have a 440V coil on the contactor, I would assume the motor is wired for 440 as well and needs switched.
Second, I think I’ve read it’s best to put the generated leg on L3. That should be the one that doesn’t go to the contactor coil.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Cal Haines · Mar 20, 2019

Skywalker said:
I've sifted and sorted through all the information that my brain can hold.
I think I have a grasp of what's needed to power this on 220 3 phase.
Give me reassurance, please.

1) The motor tag confirms 220/440 is an option. Simple enough.
View attachment 252635
2) I checked the starting coil/contactor to confirm it was 440, and needs replaced.
View attachment 252636
3) I checked the overload heaters and confirmed that H1367 is undersized for 220, and needs replaced
by a H1372B or H1373B
View attachment 252637

**Note also my shop is supplied with 3ph via a 15hp VFD rated at 40 amps. 13.2 should not be a problem considering the
derating for single phase input. But, I may have read that these old motors prefer RFC over VFD's...
Any problems feeding it with a modern AC drive? Should I use L1 and L3 as real phases, and L2 for the created?

Thanks in advance,
Luke

If you haven't already found it, here's the conversion checklist: 10EE MG 440 to 220 Conversion Checklist

Having an entire shop powered by a single VFD is very unusual, unless you have something like a Phase-Perfect, which really isn't the same thing. What exactly do you have?

Cal

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2019

Cal,
What I have is a small backyard shop that I use for knife making.
After out-growing my garage, I had to expand. When planning the electrical system
for the new shop, and sizing a few VFDs for the recently added equipment, an
electrician at work suggested instead of buying one for each piece...
get one large enough for the highest rated machine, and power all 4 machines from the same drive.
With a cabinet of selectors (I believe normally closed contactors)only one machine can ever be operated at once.

My drive is a Teco-Westinghouse 15hp 40amp.
The Thompson model B surface grinder 7.5hp is the largest load at 6.2 amps, everything else is 2-3hp stuff.
I power the following:
Supermax vertical mill
5hp Baldor hydraulic power unit for my 29ton forging press
3hp SEW Eurodrive powered rolling mill (home made)
and now the Monarch 10EE

I have one small VFD which is separate on my home built 2x72 belt sander which is 1hp enclosed unit
that drops to 110v with variable sped control right on the unit for quick on the fly adjustments.

Sharing the VFD was just an economical choice for me to run a few machines. At $650.00 it was cheaper
than a RPC.

-Luke

Cal Haines · Mar 20, 2019

I hope that works out for you. I think you could have bought an RPC panel and a used 3-phase motor, and had an RPC setup for about half of that.

The problem with VFDs driving older (non-inverter rated) AC motors, is that the VFD's output can be pretty dirty, with high voltage transients produced by the inverter circuitry. Those transients can damage the windings of a non-inverter rated motor. The solution is to put an AC line reactor at each motor (the reactor needs to be sized to the motor).

Assuming that you have reasonably clean 3-phase power coming out of your VFD setup, your 10EE's motor/generator should be fine. I would at least add a 5HP reactor to the 10EE, just to be safe.

Cal

Skywalker · Mar 20, 2019

Cal Haines said:
I hope that works out for you. I think you could have bought an RPC panel and a used 3-phase motor, and had an RPC setup for about half of that.

The problem with VFDs driving older (non-inverter rated) AC motors, is that the VFD's output can be pretty dirty, with high voltage transients produced by the inverter circuitry. Those transients can damage the windings of a non-inverter rated motor. The solution is to put an AC line reactor at each motor (the reactor needs to be sized to the motor).

Assuming that you have reasonably clean 3-phase power coming out of your VFD setup, your 10EE's motor/generator should be fine. I would at least add a 5HP reactor to the 10EE, just to be safe.

Cal

Thanks Cal! I was aware there was something needed to clean up the 3ph, but wasn't sure what was needed.
I'll just get a 7.5 hp, and precede all of my motors.
Your help is awesome, you make the 10EE monster, not so daunting.
-Luke

labeeman · Mar 20, 2019

Read your manual very well most VFD's do not like the motor disconnected while power applied to the motor.

Cal Haines · Mar 20, 2019

Skywalker said:
Thanks Cal! I was aware there was something needed to clean up the 3ph, but wasn't sure what was needed.
I'll just get a 7.5 hp, and precede all of my motors.
...

The reactor needs to sized to the load motor; you need a 5HP reactor for a 10EE MG set.

Cal

TheOldCar · Mar 20, 2019

Cal Haines said:
I hope that works out for you. I think you could have bought an RPC panel and a used 3-phase motor, and had an RPC setup for about half of that.

The problem with VFDs driving older (non-inverter rated) AC motors, is that the VFD's output can be pretty dirty, with high voltage transients produced by the inverter circuitry. Those transients can damage the windings of a non-inverter rated motor. The solution is to put an AC line reactor at each motor (the reactor needs to be sized to the motor).

Assuming that you have reasonably clean 3-phase power coming out of your VFD setup, your 10EE's motor/generator should be fine. I would at least add a 5HP reactor to the 10EE, just to be safe.

Cal

Never knew this! Good info, thanks!

rakort · Mar 20, 2019

Cal Haines said:
The problem with VFDs driving older (non-inverter rated) AC motors, is that the VFD's output can be pretty dirty, with high voltage transients produced by the inverter circuitry. Those transients can damage the windings of a non-inverter rated motor. The solution is to put an AC line reactor at each motor (the reactor needs to be sized to the motor).
Assuming that you have reasonably clean 3-phase power coming out of your VFD setup, your 10EE's motor/generator should be fine. I would at least add a 5HP reactor to the 10EE, just to be safe.Cal

I agree that the problem running an older 3 phase motor with a VFD is the transients and / or voltage spikes from the vfd that could overwhelm and damage the motor’s older non-inverter rated insulation.
I’ve often heard of using a line reactor on the input side of the vfd to limit harmonics and other such nonsense I don’t fully understand on the power supply (vfd input) side of things. I’ve never heard of using a line reactor downstream of the vfd to help protect it from vfd transients. I’m interested in learning more as I am also running my MG drive motor with a VFD, but haven’t finalized the installation and will include a line reactor between the vfd and motor if that makes sense.

Skywalker, one thing I’ve heard over and over is you never want to switch, disconnect, open or otherwise transition the power lines between the motor and the VFD when the vfd is operating or else damage will occur. Hopefully in your setup you have interlocks to prevent that.

rakort · Mar 20, 2019

labeeman said:
Read your manual very well most VFD's do not like the motor disconnected while power applied to the motor.

I just covered that as well......and when saying "most VFD's" I would read that as ALL VFD's.

Skywalker · Mar 21, 2019

Very valid point about switching the controls while the VFD is operating.
Its simple to say, as a one man shop, that I would always power down between switches,
but the point of an interlock to prevent this is an excellent idea.
Who knows the future of this equipment after I'm gone.
I'd hate to have a future generation of operator cook the VFD.
I'll have to approach my electrician again...
and build in a solution.

THANKS !!!

Skywalker · Mar 21, 2019

Pondering today...
Help me understand the difference of switching a motor on and off, and or changing directions while wired to a VFD, and the set up I mentioned above. I've had my vertical mill ran on VFD for several years with no issue. It's turned on and off many times per operation. Wouldn't contactors switching between machines be the same??
I'm very curious. I may not have the knowledge to understand this...but several industrial electricians here at work say it's not an issue. 'We do it all the time'. But, I've also read as above--- to never switch them or change directions while running.
Can someone shed more light on this subject??

labeeman · Mar 21, 2019

Skywalker said:
Pondering today...
Help me understand the difference of switching a motor on and off, and or changing directions while wired to a VFD, and the set up I mentioned above. I've had my vertical mill ran on VFD for several years with no issue. It's turned on and off many times per operation. Wouldn't contactors switching between machines be the same??
I'm very curious. I may not have the knowledge to understand this...but several industrial electricians here at work say it's not an issue. 'We do it all the time'. But, I've also read as above--- to never switch them or change directions while running.
Can someone shed more light on this subject??

Disconnecting the motor while running can put high voltages on the IGBT's that will short them out. All that you can do reversing the direction of the motor to stopping the motor can be done with lo voltage wiring at the VFD without disconnecting the motor. All VFD's instructions say to not disconnect the motor from the VFD but to use the lo voltage connections on the VFD control side. On VFD you can control how the motor is stopped either with braking or coast to a stop.

rakort · Mar 21, 2019

labeeman said:
Disconnecting the motor while running can put high voltages on the IGBT's that will short them out. All that you can do reversing the direction of the motor to stopping the motor can be done with lo voltage wiring at the VFD without disconnecting the motor. All VFD's instructions say to not disconnect the motor from the VFD but to use the lo voltage connections on the VFD control side. On VFD you can control how the motor is stopped either with braking or coast to a stop.

exactly.

if you are running a mill with a VFD, the stop/start/reverse presumably is not done by contactors between the vfd and the motor.

Originally a non VFD operated motor would have contactors manage the stop/start/reverse. Providing 3 phase to a machine that has contactors for fwd/rev/stop with a VFD is going to be a problem. I don't know the exact reasons why you can't, but like labeeman said I'd guess it would be intolerable voltage spikes.

labeeman · Mar 21, 2019

On a VFD you can set up motor overload for that motor only but if you are changing the size of the motor you can only set up overload for the largest motor the smaller motors will not have overload or stall protection.

Skywalker · Mar 21, 2019

rakort said:
exactly.

if you are running a mill with a VFD, the stop/start/reverse presumably is not done by contactors between the vfd and the motor.

Originally a non VFD operated motor would have contactors manage the stop/start/reverse. Providing 3 phase to a machine that has contactors for fwd/rev/stop with a VFD is going to be a problem. I don't know the exact reasons why you can't, but like labeeman said I'd guess it would be intolerable voltage spikes.

So a 10EE cannot be run from a VFD fed 3phase?

rakort · Mar 21, 2019

Skywalker said:
So a 10EE cannot be run from a VFD fed 3phase?

Yes it can, I'm doing it myself.

In the case of the 10EE the 3 phase motor simply runs the two DC generators. The 3 phase motor never stops, starts, or reverses during operation.

All of the variable speed, stop start fwd rev is all done downstream of the 3 phase motor in the world of DC.

The commentary in the pervious post was talking about more "conventional" AC driven machines.......not something with a MG set like the 10ee.

Skywalker · Mar 21, 2019

Perhaps I need to just buy 3 more VFDs, and run everything separate?
This is becoming more and more complex.
What seemed like a simple solution to create a small power supply for a few machines,
has spiraled into oblivion. LOL
Thanks for attempting to clarify the particularities!
>>> Phoning an electrical engineer now...I'll make chips eventually.
-Luke

Skywalker · Mar 21, 2019

rakort said:
Yes it can, I'm doing it myself.

In the case of the 10EE the 3 phase motor simply runs the two DC generators. The 3 phase motor never stops, starts, or reverses during operation.

All of the variable speed, stop start fwd rev is all done downstream of the 3 phase motor in the world of DC.

The commentary in the pervious post was talking about more "conventional" AC driven machines.......not something with a MG set like the 10ee.

AHHHHHHHHHH okay. I understand. Thank you for clarifying.
This electrical stuff is hard for me to grasp.
I know enough to get myself in over my head.
(I'm just a dumb roller coaster mechanic)
Thanks for all the help!!!

10EE (#15491) 220v Powering Checklist

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