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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    It does not have split brushes.
    Still a good idea to see that they are in good order.

    An erratic FA relay seems a better fit to the symptom, even so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Still a good idea to see that they are in good order.

    An erratic FA relay seems a better fit to the symptom, even so.
    The brushes seem to be ok.

    Forgive my ignorance "FA relay"

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    The brushes seem to be ok.

    Forgive my ignorance "FA relay"

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Ignorance is easily correctable, MG-era 10EE. Cal Haines, Peter Haas, and others have explained it well. Not all that complicated - just stuff you haven't seen until now.

    One just has to invest in searching PM and reading.

    Meanwhile: "Field Acceleration". It doesn't actually "accelerate" the Field, it configures the field for the job OF acceleration..

    It alters field power so the Armature's electromagnetic field can get a stronger "grip" when ramping-up or braking than the lesser power level as might otherwise be dialed-in to hit and hold an RPM in the "Field Weakened" range.

    See also how a 10EE manages braking and detecting the LOSS of field-power.

    Garden-variety relays of the "sensitive" tribe were adapted by adding external components to cause them to be Current / Voltage "aware" creatures, acting within a specific range rather than simple binary ON/OFF "regardless".

    To compare to the familiar, the result is comparable to an automatic transmission in a motorcar determining when to downshift for a hill, then upshift once over it, or a "cruise control" speed setting being cancelled when one hits the brakes, yet "still there" when one hits the "resume" button.

    A 10EE does that with just a few silly-simple parts. An automatic transmission? They were, once. Nowadays? Not so simple at all!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Pic attached

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    It looks like the DC control panel has been replaced at some point. That's the type of panel that was used on square-dial and WiaD 10EEs. What you have is a known problem with "Resistor B-E" in the upper-right corner of the panel. $30 worth of parts and you'll be back in business.

    See this post: Start up problem with m/G machine?

    If you need to use the machine while you're waiting for parts to arrive, you can jumper around resistor B-E, just be careful not to plug reverse the machine, as the jumper will disable the anti-plugging circuit.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It looks like the DC control panel has been replaced at some point. That's the type of panel that was used on square-dial and WiaD 10EEs. What you have is a known problem with "Resistor B-E" in the upper-right corner of the panel. $30 worth of parts and you'll be back in business.

    See this post: Start up problem with m/G machine?

    If you need to use the machine while you're waiting for parts to arrive, you can jumper around resistor B-E, just be careful not to plug reverse the machine, as the jumper will disable the anti-plugging circuit.

    Cal
    Thanks Cal.

    Has anyone purchased anything like these lately?

    Google search is not coming up with resistors that look like the ones needed. Links to Newark are dead or no longer link to the resistors.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Thanks Cal.

    Has anyone purchased anything like these lately?

    Google search is not coming up with resistors that look like the ones needed. Links to Newark are dead or no longer link to the resistors.
    Google HAS found speciality houses - eg; NOT Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key, etc. - as have the right ones in the right Wattage and values.... for all of a 10EE's needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Thanks Cal.

    Has anyone purchased anything like these lately?

    Google search is not coming up with resistors that look like the ones needed. Links to Newark are dead or no longer link to the resistors.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I checked the links before I posted and again just now. They work fine for me, using both Firefox and Microsoft Edge. You can always go to Newark's website and enter the Ohmite part number into their search, for example, L50J2K0E. Digikey, Allied Electronics and Mouser all have them in stock as well. About $10 to $12 each. Even Amazon has them!

    No, they don't look exactly like the ones in your panel, but they'll be just fine, trust me on this.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It looks like the DC control panel has been replaced at some point. That's the type of panel that was used on square-dial and WiaD 10EEs. What you have is a known problem with "Resistor B-E" in the upper-right corner of the panel. $30 worth of parts and you'll be back in business.

    See this post: Start up problem with m/G machine?

    If you need to use the machine while you're waiting for parts to arrive, you can jumper around resistor B-E, just be careful not to plug reverse the machine, as the jumper will disable the anti-plugging circuit.

    Cal
    Thank you Cal and all who answered. Cal you were correct. I replaced the 2000ohm resistor and machine is working as it had.

    Next question is should I have a set on hand? Also should I order 2 1600ohm resistors (having trouble finding those in the 50amp) or the 3000 and 200 ohm resistors to replace the other 2 so they will all be new?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    As I explained in the post that I linked to, 1600 Ohm resistors are not a standard value. Just use the 3000 and the 200 Ohm in series, it will be fine. The pair of resistors only have to dissipate about 5 Watts. The 50 Watt rating is so far in excess of what's needed that they will barely get warm. I chose 50W resistors simply because they are the right physical size, not because they need to handle that much power.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    As I explained in the post that I linked to, 1600 Ohm resistors are not a standard value. Just use the 3000 and the 200 Ohm in series, it will be fine. The pair of resistors only have to dissipate about 5 Watts. The 50 Watt rating is so far in excess of what's needed that they will barely get warm. I chose 50W resistors simply because they are the right physical size, not because they need to handle that much power.

    Cal
    Thanks again Cal. I kind of figured from looking at resistors that I would be following your recommendation on the 3000 & 200 ohm resistor.

    If I am following along correctly it is your belief that I should replace the last 2 resistors then. My assumption being one went and they are all the same age.

    Is it also worthwhile ordering a complete second set? (2000,3000 & 200 ohm resistors)

    Sorry this is just out of my wheelhouse.

    Again I really appreciate the time.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    If you're on a budget, you can skip replacing the 1600 Ohm resistors. They could be bad and you probably wouldn't notice. It's up to you. The 1600 Ohm resistors don't have to handle as much power as the 2000, so they're less likely to die.

    No, don't waste your money buying a second set of resistors. The new resistors will last forever.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    If you're on a budget, you can skip replacing the 1600 Ohm resistors. They could be bad and you probably wouldn't notice. It's up to you. The 1600 Ohm resistors don't have to handle as much power as the 2000, so they're less likely to die.

    No, don't waste your money buying a second set of resistors. The new resistors will last forever.

    Cal
    Ok. Thanks Cal. Great info. One last question. I am assuming there has to be 3200 ohm total and placement does not matter? 2000 is in its location so choice would be 2000-3000-200 or 2000-200-3000.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Is it also worthwhile ordering a complete second set? (2000,3000 & 200 ohm resistors)
    No need. They will never become a show-stopper, nor terribly expensive.

    Too many ways to "make up" a value by paralleling, series, and/or combination, even using an adjustable or winding yer own and running leads to displaced mount if size, shape, or space conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Ok. Thanks Cal. Great info. One last question. I am assuming there has to be 3200 ohm total and placement does not matter? 2000 is in its location so choice would be 2000-3000-200 or 2000-200-3000.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    The 3000 and the 200 go in place of the two 1600s. It doesn't matter which one goes where, as long as they are connected in series, just like the 1600 Ohm pair was.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The 3000 and the 200 go in place of the two 1600s. It doesn't matter which one goes where, as long as they are connected in series, just like the 1600 Ohm pair was.

    Cal
    Thank you Cal.
    That's what I thought but just wanted to make sure. The 3k and 200 should be here shortly but in the meantime the machine is up and running.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Thank you Cal.
    That's what I thought but just wanted to make sure. The 3k and 200 should be here shortly but in the meantime the machine is up and running.
    For future reference.. "standard values" for resistors - initially set by Corps of Engineers, French Army, 1870's ...look odd.

    They became "standard" (1952, "officially") as the values chosen give the greatest range of OTHER values for the least count of individual units placed in series, parallel, or some combination, thereof. To boot, the tolerance bands overlapped, which supported hand-sorting of "actual" values to fine-tune a circuit vs the higher cost of higher-precision parts, custom-made to non-standard values.

    Time was, some firms (one former day-job included) great lots of resistors were tested at incoming, sorted, marked (extra dot of coloured paint) and used in production accordingly. Saved serious money where tens of thousands of an item were made every year.

    Oddly, NONE OF 3200, 1600, nor 200 happen to BE "standard values":

    Standard Resistor Values >> Resistor Guide

    One has to guess that 3300 Ohms - which IS a standard - just wasn't close enough, (though I would bet it IS!) and that the 10EE having arrived on the scene just as a major war ramped-up, the value they DID choose was already in volume production for a wider application set, hence less likely to become a production bottleneck.

    I did say "guess", as both of my 10EE are older than I am, and their design lock-in, older, yet.

    But that is a "not uncommon" decision, then or now, in manufacturing in general.

    2CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    For future reference.. "standard values" for resistors - initially set by Corps of Engineers, US Army, 1870's ...look odd.

    They became "standard" (1952, "officially") as the values chosen give the greatest range of OTHER values for the least count of individual units placed in series, parallel, or some combination, thereof. To boot, the tolerance bands overlapped, which supported hand-sorting of "actual" values to fine-tune a circuit vs the higher cost of higher-precision parts, custom-made to non-standard values.

    Time was, some firms (one former day-job included) great lots of resistors were tested at incoming, sorted, marked (extra dot of coloured paint) and used in production accordingly. Saved serious money where tens of thousands of an item were made every year.

    Oddly, NONE OF 3200, 1600, nor 200 happen to BE "standard values":

    Standard Resistor Values >> Resistor Guide

    One has to guess that 3300 Ohms - which IS a standard - just wasn't close enough, and that the 10EE having arrived on the scene just as a major war ramped-up, the value they DID choose was already in volume production for a wider application set, hence less likely to become a production bottleneck.

    I did say "guess", as both of my 10EE being older than I am. But that is a not uncommon decision, then or now, in manufacturing in general.

    2CW
    Thanks for the info Thermite. I scanned the link but AM heading for work so I will read it later.

    I'm guessing you are right on why Monarch used the values they used. Mine all appear to have hand writing on the ends so I'm guessing Monarch may have been making them in house.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Thanks for the info Thermite. I scanned the link but AM heading for work so I will read it later.
    No urgency. Future reference only. It may de-mystify sumthin' next time you need a resistor. What you have now - or have coming - could easily outlast YOU, 10EE are that durable.


    I'm guessing you are right on why Monarch used the values they used. Mine all appear to have hand writing on the ends so I'm guessing Monarch may have been making them in house.
    Making, doubtful. Some of the OEM's were just up the road.

    Sorting, probably. PAYING a premium for hand-sort from the maker or a major distributor even more likely. BTDTGTTS. Transistors, capacitors, diodes, same-again.

    Volume-control potentiometers, microphones, reproducers, our firm DID make up until the "electret" mic in hearing-aid useful sizes was invented, then we started buying from Kenny Knowles and the Shure brothers.

    Same thing, even so. All "incoming" components were tested and marked with a coloured paint dot. Ignorant Testor's "Pla" from the model shop, and the tip of a toothpick, actually!

    Not much room to write on parts as will need 20-power B&L binocular microscopes to assemble!

    Engineering lab had worked out which "colour code" transistor to use with which colours of other parts to hit the design response curve and power. Or alter it.

    10EE is a comfortably simple creature - like old soft shoes - by comparison to the electronics industry before printed-circuits, IC's, and automatic tape-fed testing, insertion, soldering, then bed-of-nails final testing "no human involved" automation arrived. Even that.. was over a quarter century back.

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  20. #39
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    When I started in this business, the greatest worry was getting electrocuted. Now its finding a part if you drop it.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    When I started in this business, the greatest worry was getting electrocuted. Now its finding a part if you drop it.

    Bill
    .. and STILL getting zapped, electric-chair style, yet .. right through the crown of a bald head once you finally locate it and bend over to retrieve it .. under a naked terminal, live!

    "The good news" about those bald spots? If the naked terminal is a lip-lock delivered by a lovely lady, a body can actually generate electricity. Concentration on the matter of energy or some such Law of Physicals.

    Eat yer hearts out, oh ye upholstered ones!


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