10ee Carriage stop rod question
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  1. #1
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    Default 10ee Carriage stop rod question

    My 10ee was missing the carriage stop, but I've seen pictures of it. I even saw one a few days ago, but didn't make note of any details at the time.

    I would like to make one. I had thought from pictures I've seen that it was just a round rod with a notch machined in it every half inch. I expected the shape to be square on side nearest the TS end and angled on the side farthest from the TS end. I imagined that the notch was cut straight across the bar so its bottom would be flat. Pictures I have been able to find here and elsewhere online don't really show the shape of the notch well enough to know for sure.

    When I looked through the hole, the pawl that is supposed to catch was barely visible, but it was not up where it would need to be to engage the rod. I read in another thread that it can get gummed up, so I pulled the assembly off and cleaned it up such that the arm now rotates freely. But, while in there, I noticed that the pawl is not straight across as I was expecting. It doesn't look worn, though, and I can't imagine a hardened part like that wearing. Is this what they all look like? How does that engage the notch in the rod?

    Here's what mine looks like.

    20180521_001259-cr.jpg

    Dave

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    It's a round rod with notches machined/ground to at least .001 precision, that's what I checked one at. There's an offset lever at the far end that you use to rotate it out of the latch and it can be then pushed back and forth with some ease. I'll try to attach a picture in a little while.

    On edit: here's a thread that goes into a lot of detail:

    10EE carriage stop

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    I did see that thread. It didn't have the info I was after. The pic of the housing and lever didn't show the shape of the pawl. Is it supposed to have a section ground of it like mine? Are the notches just straight across? Or do they have a radius, too? I would think they would be straight across, but so, too, I expected the pawl to also be straight across.

    Dave

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    The notches are flat on one side and angled on the other, like the pawl. The parts you have all look correct. The stop bar is going to be hard to make with enough precision to be really useful. This is an item that's not usually missing or damaged, so eventually one will turn up from a machine that was parted. I'd keep looking and checking ebay.

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    I recognized that the profile of the notch is vertical on the side nearest the TS and angled on the other. And yes, the pawl is the same. I can't understand how the round missing section of the pawl on mine can possibly engage a notch that goes straight across the bar. I don't know how else to convey that.

    Dave

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    With the casting broke where it is you will not be able to get repeatable stops.
    It also may be the reason the rod is missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    With the casting broke where it is you will not be able to get repeatable stops.
    It also may be the reason the rod is missing.
    I was concerned about that, but only the outer edge of the screw hole is broken out. On the other side of the setscrew, the hole is complete and there is no detectable movement in the pin.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    I was concerned about that, but only the outer edge of the screw hole is broken out. On the other side of the setscrew, the hole is complete and there is no detectable movement in the pin.

    Dave
    In the picture a crack or a scratch goes away from the pin can't tell which.

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    I see that. I was paying more attention to the area that was missing and the shape of the pawl. I'll look at that crack/scratch when I pull it apart again.

    Either way, I couldn't get any movement out of the pin. I didn't try real hard, but since it should really only be subjected the the spring pressure of a DI, I don't suspect that it will be a problem.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    I see that. I was paying more attention to the area that was missing and the shape of the pawl. I'll look at that crack/scratch when I pull it apart again.

    Either way, I couldn't get any movement out of the pin. I didn't try real hard, but since it should really only be subjected the the spring pressure of a DI, I don't suspect that it will be a problem.

    Dave
    A crash with the rod could have caused that also and to prevent further damage the rod was removed.

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    I did another search with different search terms and found this picture of the stop rod. It looks like the notches do, in fact, go straight across the rod. So, how, then, does the pawl with a round section missing engage these notches?

    62585d1352400914-how-dooes-ee-stop-bar-work-setup-ee-bar-stop.jpg

    Dave

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    Well not planning on pulling mine apparat to check (but maybe I will). Anyway, forces on the rod are quite low, so as long as the removed section is not so large there is no engagement it will still work. Think of it this way, the rod sliding back and forth in a matching radi will have a lot less wear than one scraping along a sharp edge in effect a point of contact.
    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    I did another search with different search terms and found this picture of the stop rod. It looks like the notches do, in fact, go straight across the rod. So, how, then, does the pawl with a round section missing engage these notches?

    62585d1352400914-how-dooes-ee-stop-bar-work-setup-ee-bar-stop.jpg

    Dave
    As was mentioned in that other thread, many of them seem to have had the mechanism become gummed-up inside and the "system" then just gone out of use.

    I appreciate that what Monarch provided did add value, but I don't think it is worth a huge effort in your case to try to restore it until you can get a housing that is NOT cracked, as well as having functional internals.

    One thing to repair worn, harder to try to basically reverse-engineer it when too much is missing. It just doesn't have that critical -used-every-day-all-day-can't-do-without-it type of contribution to make.

    If I actually NEEDED the functionality, it would be a DRO I was fitting instead, 'coz it would bring other "useful goodness" in addition to just this part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    As was mentioned in that other thread, many of them seem to have had the mechanism become gummed-up inside and the "system" then just gone out of use.

    I appreciate that what Monarch provided did add value, but I don't think it is worth a huge effort in your case to try to restore it until you can get a housing that is NOT cracked, as well as having functional internals.

    One thing to repair worn, harder to try to basically reverse-engineer it when too much is missing. It just doesn't have that critical -used-every-day-all-day-can't-do-without-it type of contribution to make.

    If I actually NEEDED the functionality, it would be a DRO I was fitting instead, 'coz it would bring other "useful goodness" in addition to just this part.
    I can appreciate the fact that it may take some effort to recreate what is missing. I had another look tonight and still can detect no movement in the pin. Besides that, the minimal force that exists will be pushing against the more substantial part of the housing.

    Based on these measurements...
    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    Cal,

    On the square-dial the notches are .135 deep, have .14 flat and an angle of 38 +/- degrees. I would not argue if someone said 40 (likely) but as closely as I could measure they were 38. No comparator in my shop (yet). Clearly they are not 30, though. Examining them under moderate magnification they look to have been ground in or at least finished with a contoured stone. The grind marks were pretty visible.
    ...

    Denis
    ...I cut a single notch in a piece of HRS and cleaned up the surface, then ran it in and it does work and provides a solid stop. Rotating it allows it to move backward, of course. Machining the notches to the spacing needed might not be easy, but I don't think it would be incredibly difficult, either. The harder part, no pun intended, would probably be case hardening, or through hardening whatever material the rod is made from. While sliding the HRS back and forth, I could feel it being scraped by the hardened pawl, and when removed, of course, there were marks from it. So, simple mild steel won't do. Maybe some 4142 would be hard enough to last a little while, but I wouldn't count on that either.

    T will probably keep an eye half-open for a spare somewhere, but doubt I'll go to great lengths to replace it. It would be nice to have the ability to easily track features on a part's Z without having to use 1-2-3 blocks and the DI as I do now. Whatever error I had in making a new rod would surely amount to less than what I'm doing now, though, TBH, I doubt any of it would matter on 98% of the parts I make.

    A DRO costs money, and while their prices are certainly less today than 10 years ago, I've been bleeding money for the past month, and probably will be for the next few weeks, so a DRO is down the shopping list a ways.

    For now, my curiosity is satisfied. The round notch doesn't in fact cause any problems interfacing with the notches in the stop rod. It is just a curious thing to see it there.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    T will probably keep an eye half-open for a spare somewhere,
    I didn't want to commit because I am many MONTHS behind getting already promised parts out the door. Health issues.

    But I might have both the casting and the rod in the portions of a round-dial part-out I bought a while back.

    Zing me later in the summer. There is NFW I can do anything on that 'til August. Most of the boxes haven't ever been opened since they came in. I just didn't want round-dial parts going to scrap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I didn't want to commit because I am many MONTHS behind getting already promised parts out the door. Health issues.

    But I might have both the casting and the rod in the portions of a round-dial part-out I bought a while back.

    Zing me later in the summer. There is NFW I can do anything on that 'til August. Most of the boxes haven't ever been opened since they came in. I just didn't want round-dial parts going to scrap.
    Thanks, but I have a square dial machine.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    Thanks, but I have a square dial machine.

    Dave
    The notched rod shows up in more than one parts picture on a round dial. The "pictures" are not the greatest, are not production blueprints. But they "look the same".

    I have neither the blueprints nor even the parts pictures for a square dial, but that part might still be the same.

    Cast housing, not the same. Pawls inside housing? Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    The notched rod shows up in more than one parts picture on a round dial. The "pictures" are not the greatest, are not production blueprints. But they "look the same".

    I have neither the blueprints nor even the parts pictures for a square dial, but that part might still be the same.

    Cast housing, not the same. Pawls inside housing? Who knows?
    Oh, they aren't the same. The round dial has an catch that is external to the housing, bolted to the left-hand side of it. When engaged, the notches are facing forward, toward the operator. The square dial has the catch inside the housing. When engaged, the notches are facing downward. Because of how they are assembled, the notches for the square dial are several inches to the right of the corresponding number and mark for the operator to reference. I don't know if the round dial machine's rod was 5/8" or not like the square dial rod is.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    ... How does that engage the notch in the rod?

    Here's what mine looks like.

    20180521_001259-cr.jpg

    Dave
    Dave,

    Can you post a photo that shows the damage to the casting near the pivot pin, in the lower-right of your photo. That damage doesn't look like it will affect the operation of the latch. And it looks to me like the portion with the damage may be a separate part that's attached to the larger casting.

    Here's the section of the headstock drawing 202.268, showing the mechanism:
    202268___headstock-section-k-kr.jpg


    And in case anyone else was slow in recognizing it, Dave's photo is of the back of the casting, so the tailstock is to the left; the vertical surface of the notch in the rod pushes against the vertical end of the pawl when force is applied from the tailstock end of the stop rod. Any force applied to the stop rod with push the pivot pin into the undamaged portion of the casting and shouldn't aggravate the damage.

    Cal

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    I'll take another pic of it next time I pull it apart. I put it back together last night to test out the rod that I made.

    Dave


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