10EE Collet Nose Runout

Hi Everyone,

New to the forum and new to a Monarch 10EE. (1954 M/G model)
I have a collet nose (I think is Monarch) with a Royal closer. I have about .005” of runout on the collet nose and have tried all orintations and can’t seem to get it to run true. Is this a normal amount of runout? The spindle has no signifacnat runout that could translate to the collet nose, and my 6 jaw buck chuck, once zeroed, runs relatively true when clocking it in all combinations on the locking cams.

I’m upgrading from a Southbend 10K, it looks like I’ll be on here often for advice.
Thanks in advance for the help!
Jon®

It’s a D1-3 closer. The inside of the closer is in nice condition, no dings at all.

I’ll give that a try, thanks!

jreiland:
You need to grab a grease pencil or a sharpie. Set up the collet nose. Put an indicator on it, I'd probably start with the outside near the nose.. Mark the high spot.
Then indicate on the ID of the bore for the collet. see if the high spot matches.
Then go back to the base of the nose, where it's mounted on the D1-3 spindle.. indicate on it.. mark the high spot again.

From looking at these high spots see if you can reach any conclusions about the problem.

Such as: both indictions at the nose, OD and ID both match, but the base of the nose is right on..: that means to me that the nose is not seating square on the spindle nose, or is machined badly? To me if the base is good, but the nose is off, then the whole nose is tipped, by not being a true 'extension' of the spindle.

Maybe the mounting pins, like Thermite said are not 'correct'.. Actually, the pins only hold the nose onto the taper and face of the spindle.. if you have indicated on the spindle [I think you said you had and found it near zero runout] and the spindle is 'right on', Then the mounting surface or taper in the nose is damaged or cut wrong..

Something as simple as removing the three pins, put the base of the closer on a surface plate and shine a light under it.. See any light? OR lay a piece of 800 or 1200 grit carborundum on the surface plate and make a SINGLE swipe of the closer over the paper, and then grab a good light and a magnifying glass and inspect the base for high spots.
Or get messy and use ink and find the high spots. IF that is the problem, it may not be..

If you cannot reach any conclusions,, this gets a bit more complicated but actually you are doing the same thing: Fact-finding..
Get a red or blue sharpie.. and some note paper.. Draw the nose, draw the spindle.. put the first group of the indicator's readings on the drawings.. in your original color..

Then turn the nose one pin on the spindle, and repeat all the indications, and mark with the different color marker.. Repeat the drawing on a separate page..with the matching color marker..

Then rotate the nose again, one pin.. Repeat.. write it down.. draw it out.. with matching color marker.

Sometimes I have to put all three drawings together and make a composite.. About now I'm usually ready to pitch the offending item in the 'round-file'. aka trash can.. But: persevere ! It's a hell of a learning process. and helps train our mind to look at a problem with a single variable each time..

You will eventually figure out where or what the problem is. The process works.. it just takes patience then looking at it.
Sometimes a cup of coffee or two is needed..
Sometimes a beer or two are needed.. LOL

Don't spend too much on the beer, you might want the money to buy a new collet nose.. :-)

Let us know what you find.. We all learn through other's learning experiences.. if they are shared..

Best of luck..
DualValve.

seems you are new to D1 cam lock system, what's good to know is there is a bit of a learning curve on them. if true and tuned up they are the best, quick and repeatable, but not all spindles and all accessories are really "within spec" and truly compatable. just because they fit on the nose, doesn't mean all is good. as far as I understand, ideally the flat mating surface makes contact just as the taper becomes an interference fit, and that is a really tight tolerance to hit.

a lot of threads on here with good info, but the basics are locking cams should be tight between 3 and 6 o'clock and no gap between the flats (again, ideally) a lot of things probably just mate on the taper, and for lighter work, that may be fine. I have seen some dispute about that, but seems to me not ideal and can result in a canted fit?

regardless, without the basics of the proper consistent and repeatable fit up all other diagnostics are premature.

slightly OT, but anyone have any experience grinding the internal taper on accessories to get proper fit up?

cyanidekid said:

seems you are new to D1 cam lock system, what's good to know is there is a bit of a learning curve on them. if true and tuned up they are the best, quick and repeatable, but not all spindles and all accessories are really "within spec" and truly compatable. just because they fit on the nose, doesn't mean all is good. as far as I understand, ideally the flat mating surface makes contact just as the taper becomes an interference fit, and that is a really tight tolerance to hit.

a lot of threads on here with good info, but the basics are locking cams should be tight between 3 and 6 o'clock and no gap between the flats (again, ideally) a lot of things probably just mate on the taper, and for lighter work, that may be fine. I have seen some dispute about that, but seems to me not ideal and can result in a canted fit?

regardless, without the basics of the proper consistent and repeatable fit up all other diagnostics are premature.

slightly OT, but anyone have any experience grinding the internal taper on accessories to get proper fit up?

Click to expand...

Not grinding, but turning on the lathe yes. Check the threads on the forum, it is well covered. Search for plastigage.

Before you get to blueing, use some plastigage. Three small pieces on the taper. Check that the back of the nosepiece is contacting the spindle on all sides (use a bright light). If you see light, look for high spots, nicks, etc. and address those first. With .005" of runout, I doubt that the problem is caused by high spots on the flats, much more likely a poorly fitted taper. Then do the math: i.e. compute the amount to be removed from the back of the nosepiece for every .001" of clearance on the D1-3 taper. The result may surprise you.

One caveat: in order to correct this problem on the lathe, you will need at least one well-fitted work holder that can hold tolerances to .0002". Its unfortunate that the 5C spindle nosepiece is the one that needs reworking, those are usually dead-on, at least if they are original Monarch.

rimcanyon said:

Not grinding, but turning on the lathe yes. Check the threads on the forum, it is well covered. Search for plastigage.

Before you get to blueing, use some plastigage. Three small pieces on the taper. Check that the back of the nosepiece is contacting the spindle on all sides (use a bright light). If you see light, look for high spots, nicks, etc. and address those first. With .005" of runout, I doubt that the problem is caused by high spots on the flats, much more likely a poorly fitted taper. Then do the math: i.e. compute the amount to be removed from the back of the nosepiece for every .001" of clearance on the D1-3 taper. The result may surprise you.

One caveat: in order to correct this problem on the lathe, you will need at least one well-fitting work holder that can hold tolerances to .0002". Its unfortunate that the 5C spindle nosepiece is the one that needs reworking, those are usually dead-on, at least if they are original Monarch.

Click to expand...

the inference in your post is, I think, facing off the flat to get the taper to engage properly. was referring to the opposite situation, but of corse either could be off. will search. Thanks

cyanidekid said:

the inference in your post is, I think, facing off the flat to get the taper to engage properly. was referring to the opposite situation, but of corse either could be off. will search. Thanks

Click to expand...

Here's what I've observed after fitting a couple dozen d1-3 work holders: most of them were loose on the taper, requiring facing the flat. Some of them needed the taper recut because of really poor cleanliness, i.e. they had been abused, closed with chips in the taper repeatedly. Sometimes I overshot the facing of the flat, requiring recutting the taper. Sometimes the original machining was not aligned correctly, requiring recutting the taper and the flat. Its a trial and error process. Once it is fitted to the taper, use a 1" hardened dowel to check for both runout and alignment along the length of the dowel.

My favorite workholder is my 2J collet chuck. But it had really bad runout when I bought it, even though it was in beautiful condition. I had to take .050" off the flat to bring it into the ballpark. Fortunately the 5C collet nosepiece was accurate, so I was able to chuck a 1" dowel in both chucks and machine the 2J chuck's flat and taper. It took several iterations, but it ended up with .0002" runout. But plastigage is the key, bluing is just the last step to confirm it fits. And really not necessary: if the chuck wedges onto the lathe taper and needs to be slapped to release it, you have the right fit. After I had good results with the 2J collet chuck I went through all the chucks I owned and tested with plastigage. Most of them had clearance and needed machining.

rimcanyon said:

Here's what I've observed after fitting a couple dozen d1-3 work holders: most of them were loose on the taper, requiring facing the flat. Some of them needed the taper recut because of really poor cleanliness, i.e. they had been abused, closed with chips in the taper repeatedly. Sometimes I overshot the facing of the flat, requiring recutting the taper. Sometimes the original machining was not aligned correctly, requiring recutting the taper and the flat. Its a trial and error process. Once it is fitted to the taper, use a 1" hardened dowel to check for both runout and alignment along the length of the dowel.

Click to expand...

well that's obviously relative to your particular spindle. could be either way, but relative to the OP's post, the important thing is to know there could be fitment issues on a D1-X spindle and its accessories. if a threaded spindle "whatever" goes all the way on, thats pretty much the whole story, but not so much with the D1s.

cyanidekid said:

well that's obviously relative to your particular spindle. could be either way, but relative to the OP's post, the important thing is to know there could be fitment issues on a D1-X spindle and its accessories. if a threaded spindle "whatever" goes all the way on, thats pretty much the whole story, but not so much with the D1s.

Click to expand...

it also is relative to the vast majority of 10EEs out there. How many of them have new spindles or new spindle tooling? That is where the crapshoot mostly happens. What happens in general is that as the spindles and spindle tooling age, the fit to the taper gets looser. Sometimes a lot looser, depending on whether the 10EE was run hot and never put to bed, 24-7. A lot were, particularly round dial machines and machines used in production. And since the spindles are hardened they seldom wear a lot, so most of the wear is in the spindle tooling.

DaulValve,
I mounted the collet nose and marked the high/low spot, them removed it and rotated it to the next camlock and remounted, the high spot was in the same position. Same result when moved to the next position. I tried placing shim stock between the collet nose and the face of the spindle and was able to get it closer to true, within .003” but not perfect. The flat face of the spindle is true, I did try stoning the back of the collet nose, which looks really good. I’d like to find someone local that has a known good part to try and narrow down the issue.
Thanks for the tips, I’ll try the light trick in the am.

Jon

jreiland said:

DaulValve,
I mounted the collet nose and marked the high/low spot, them removed it and rotated it to the next camlock and remounted, the high spot was in the same position. Same result when moved to the next position. I tried placing shim stock between the collet nose and the face of the spindle and was able to get it closer to true, within .003” but not perfect. The flat face of the spindle is true, I did try stoning the back of the collet nose, which looks really good. I’d like to find someone local that has a known good part to try and narrow down the issue.
Thanks for the tips, I’ll try the light trick in the am.

Jon

Click to expand...

If you are tightening on the same camlock pin, well then it’s obviously going to be similar because it’s not the spindle nose, that sounds like it’s good. By tightening on the same pin in another hole of the consistent spindle, you are getting the same result, not surprising. Tighten on a different pin, not the same pin in a different hole. See it that changes anything.

What is some other part going to tell you? You need to find out what’s going on with the one you have.

If you can get “shim stock” between the flat face of the spindle and collet Chuck there is your answer. How thick is this shim? Tighten the chuck on as evenly as you can and measure the gap with a feeler gauge in at least 4 spots.

Ya, that 5c stuff runs much better on Hardinge, because they invented it. Monarch ee, it was an afterthought, sure, with a separate nose piece instead of the taper ground into the spindle. But, WoW, I just forgot how I use that versatile Jarno Taper at least after every meal.
Irratating Monarch nose pieces went on Ebay after I made this adjustable for F@cking run-out nose piece in 1998. The nose piece adjust like a Buck adjust true chuck for radial run-out.
I copied this from a CNC collet chuck sold by MSC for a then $1500. Very easy to make using a hardened 5c, CNC Collet Holder, around $150.
I had to meet a spec of .0002 for concentric, modifying an existing part, I met the spec, and that one job pretty much paid for that machine.
Oh ya, the machine is a toolmaker, don't forget that!


Those lever type closers cause problems also, no surprise, adding another bearing, and a bunch of stuff to the back of a spindle will have an effect. To further dial in the wimpy 5c collet in the ee, I fabricated this hand wheel closer, using a Timken bearing for thrust.
The material I was cutting was a hard titanium alloy....

donie said:

Ya, that 5c stuff runs much better on Hardinge, because they invented it. Monarch ee, it was an afterthought, sure, with a separate nose piece instead of the taper ground into the spindle. But, WoW, I just forgot how I use that versatile Jarno Taper at least after every meal.
Irratating Monarch nose pieces went on Ebay after I made this adjustable for F@cking run-out nose piece in 1998. The nose piece adjust like a Buck adjust true chuck for radial run-out.
I copied this from a CNC collet chuck sold by MSC for a then $1500. Very easy to make using a hardened 5c, CNC Collet Holder, around $150.
I had to meet a spec of .0002 for concentric, modifying an existing part, I met the spec, and that one job pretty much paid for that machine.
Oh ya, the machine is a toolmaker, don't forget that!

Those lever type closers cause problems also, no surprise, adding another bearing, and a bunch of stuff to the back of a spindle will have an effect. To further dial in the wimpy 5c collet in the ee, I fabricated this hand wheel closer, using a Timken bearing for thrust.
The material I was cutting was a hard titanium alloy....

Click to expand...

What a horribly ugly lathe, you should be embarrassed to even know it is in your shop

I suggest you throw it on a truck and bring it to me, I will hide it for you

you know, just as a favor.

I bought a Jarno/5C adapter and an Enco lever when I first got my lathe. Other than trying to pop the cover open whenever you open, it works well. Other than looking cool, never understood why the D1 adapter on the EE

thermite said:

I don't even understand the use of a drawtube - unless POWER operated.

D1-3 "nose closer" takes up none of the already-too-stingey spindle bore and swaps in or out faster as well.

(Sjogren 2J, Hardinge nose-mount "loop" closer, also 2J, plus 5C key-crankers, Rubberflex 9XX, ER-system, Burnerd Multi-size. No draw rods nor drawtubes, any of them)

Click to expand...

Yabut

With a 5C you cannot use any more spindle bore, and it takes zero time to pull the pins and remove the drawtube

And does not the standard EE still use a drawtube?

It is really the only way to open/close with the spindle running, which is nice for 2nd ops

I've tried several different studs (I only have 6 at the moment) with the same results, still .005" of run-out (also installing in different orientations) I took the backing plate of my 6 jaw and also get .005" of run-out measuring from the thru hole. I do see a faint amount of light between the backing plate or nose between the face of the spindle. I indicated the spindle on several parts of its face and have no runout, on the taper and face.
I'm going to order new camlock pins and see if that helps.

I'm surprised these can cause so much of a problem!

thermite said:

Life is to DAMNED short to drink bad wine, use slow computers, sleep with a bitch...or waste TOO much time on anything else already wore-out or whored-out.

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