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  1. #1
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    Default 10ee conversion questions

    I have a 1967 10ee with tubes. I've had it for 3 years now. When I first viewed it, it ran up to the 4000 rpm. mark. When I brought it home, it never ran more than 1800 rpm. I have had to move it again to a new location, now it powers up but the fans do not come on nor will the contactors engage. I'm not an electrical engineer like a lot of people here are and I am seriously thinking of a 3hp. 3phase motor with a VFD.
    Can anyone recommend the set up I would need to buy? Like which motor and what class. Which VFD and what would the rating be? remember, I'm a Machinist not an electrical engineer.
    I'm a one man shop with one lathe...the 10ee. When it's down, I'm dead in the water.
    ..........Thanx in advance...Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlchemyImagineer View Post
    I have a 1967 10ee with tubes. I've had it for 3 years now. When I first viewed it, it ran up to the 4000 rpm. mark. When I brought it home, it never ran more than 1800 rpm. I have had to move it again to a new location, now it powers up but the fans do not come on nor will the contactors engage. I'm not an electrical engineer like a lot of people here are and I am seriously thinking of a 3hp. 3phase motor with a VFD.
    Can anyone recommend the set up I would need to buy? Like which motor and what class. Which VFD and what would the rating be? remember, I'm a Machinist not an electrical engineer.
    I'm a one man shop with one lathe...the 10ee. When it's down, I'm dead in the water.
    ..........Thanx in advance...Martin
    No more maintenance than you seem to have been willing to do, I don't even want your truck!



    The 10EE, OTOH, while not able to grow its own care, at least isn't that hard to fix, so long as it has at least an OEM DC motor. Even if that is ALL it has. Backstories all over PM by this late date.

    Even so, the "detour" to apply them may be as much as mis-match to your commercial needs and available time as your skillset - perhaps better than you realize - is presumed to be.

    VFD? Mission-critical use? ONE lathe? No fallback?

    Done by Monarch, Sidney Ohio, or not at all, thanks.

    They have the experience and expertise, have done "many", not just the one, know what it must do, and how to make it happen.

    All other VFD conversions are experiments, done near-as-dammit always "one at a time".

    On which score, experience has shown that 3 HP, 3-P just won't do. You need 5 HP to 7.5 HP in 3-P to hold even "close enough" to the 3 HP and 5 HP Dee Cee motors. Those may be considered Dinosaurs, but if so, are a lot closer to T Rex than velociraptor-turkeys.

    A(ny) DC restoral to as-built OEM electron-pushing puts a 10EE right back to the same design as left the factory. All worked, and worked very well. Physical wear is parked in a different building.

    Your lathe. Your circumstances. Your rules.




    2CW

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    A 5 or 7.5 hp AC motor with a VFD should suffice.

    You need to go big to get the torque down low although a vector drive VFD is better at this then a bog standard one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    A 5 or 7.5 hp AC motor with a VFD should suffice.

    You need to go big to get the torque down low although a vector drive VFD is better at this then a bog standard one.
    +1 On top-end VFD.

    Not to forget, the mainstream affordables "wish for" new caps around 7 to 9 years out, don't ordinarily get them. They get run past their maintenance date, then replaced with whole new VFD instead. That works just fine for most folk, But the hobbyist need not care, and a "revenue" shop usually has at least one more lathe it can use to get by, even if an awkward size, or actually a mill.

    VFD - or Solid State DC Drives - are seldom wire-and-forget 20-year solutions, though it DOES happen.
    Last edited by thermite; 05-06-2018 at 08:44 AM.

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    1967 should be a module machine, there is really no reason to throw away the DC drive. Some folks here will be willing to help if you have a Multimeter. If you don’t have a multimeter you probably shouldn’t be embarking on a VFD conversion.

    There is also an ongoing project here on PM that built a replacement module and is selling them commercially along with solid state replacements for the thyratron tubes.

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by reidry View Post
    1967 should be a module machine, there is really no reason to throw away the DC drive. Some folks here will be willing to help if you have a Multimeter. If you don’t have a multimeter you probably shouldn’t be embarking on a VFD conversion.

    There is also an ongoing project here on PM that built a replacement module and is selling them commercially along with solid state replacements for the thyratron tubes.

    Ryan
    +1 I've become a big believer in restoring what Monarch shipped, any given era, if only because it is documented, is not an "experiment", nothing needs re-engineered, only fixed, and you know for certain it had already worked very well for a long, long time "as built" and can do exactly the same going forward.

    That said, I DO have an electronics background, and while I don't "sell" them, am pleased to have found a DC Drive that works well, wasn't that hard to apply, after all. So had others, both before me.

    And since;

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular


    Lots of choices, the 10EE's have. Be happy we do not have 18-speeders with crunched helical gears, nor servo shifters to spend our lives and money on.

    Just a different model Monarch if you need that, though. The 10EE was their mini.


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    If the fan doesn't start there's something really wrong - it's powered by 120VAC right off the main contactor through T3, I think after the 2A fuses (or single 5A if your lathe has that). So check the fuses and see if one of them is blown. If neither is blown check the supply to T3 and see if you're seeing line, it should be right from the disconnect. It's possible T3 is gone but that'd be weird.

    Once that's in the past open up the tube panel and see which of the tubes isn't firing as that's the most likely cause of the 1800 rpm issue. I'd suggest buying a couple of the non-vacuum replacements and replacing them rather than searching for a replacement as you're very likely to spend more than the current price on eBay for the semiconductor replacements.

    Here's the debug list for the modular drive:


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    I suggest you make an effort to fix what you have. Start with the fan, that is pretty basic. Then look at the contactor. A push on the back of the power contactor (with a nonconducting material) will engage it and it should lock into place. Make sure you don't electrocute yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlchemyImagineer View Post
    I have a 1967 10ee with tubes. I've had it for 3 years now. When I first viewed it, it ran up to the 4000 rpm. mark. When I brought it home, it never ran more than 1800 rpm. I have had to move it again to a new location, now it powers up but the fans do not come on nor will the contactors engage. I'm not an electrical engineer like a lot of people here are and I am seriously thinking of a 3hp. 3phase motor with a VFD.
    Can anyone recommend the set up I would need to buy? Like which motor and what class. Which VFD and what would the rating be? remember, I'm a Machinist not an electrical engineer.
    I'm a one man shop with one lathe...the 10ee. When it's down, I'm dead in the water.
    ..........Thanx in advance...Martin
    Martin, the problem is the machine has received no maintenance for a very long time, and finally quit.

    If I were to buy your machine dirt cheap because it doesn't run, I would----

    Pull the drive motor, clean and check, or send it out to a pro. This is the heart of the machine, if its dragging, it will stress the drive.

    Pull the module, replace all the diodes with 600v 3 amp diodes-there is info here on how to do that-I found the 600v 3amp diodes are tougher then the 1000v 1-amp diodes. Make holders "Do Not Solder them in place in the module"!

    Remove the main switch contacts and clean or replace them.
    Remove contacts from all relays, clean, and or replace as needed.

    Check every screw terminal, and also make sure all wire ends are tight, look for any repaired wires and crimped ends for bad contact or wires out of place, what has been done before may not be right.

    Repair the fan, and clean or replace the filter.

    Not electrical engineer stuff there, so I bought your lathe, did those things, and now will make a good profit.

    Keep this in mind Martin.
    The replacement Monarch AC drive is much tougher then the off the shelf magic box drives. The Monarch drive is designed for the machine with separate heavy duty switching and other components to take on the duty of the drive you now have.
    The magic box drives have tiny switches within that will not hold up to industrial use, this may not matter depending on use. The hardest function for the drive is rapid threading leaving the half nuts locked in, this is why the Monarch factory conversion would be the best choice for that reason alone.

    I have gone though several of these module machines following what I printed here with good results. It is important to obtain the correct for you machine electrical print, I know of three distinct variations of these module drives, with sometimes small changes between.

    A quick rehash of what I said, and then what.

    Do all those things. Then you have a solid base to go from, if the machine still has some problems, they are much easier to chase down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    ....open up the tube panel and see which of the tubes isn't firing as that's the most likely cause of the 1800 rpm issue. I'd suggest buying a couple of the non-vacuum replacements and replacing them rather than searching for a replacement as you're very likely to spend more than the current price on eBay for the semiconductor replacements.
    Tim Jones has made a modern replacement for the C16J's and the module. Contact info in post #47 in this thread:
    C16J and Spindle Module Replacement Project

    Bill

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    If you are going to change the motor I would suggest a 5hp or larger 3ph blackmax with a 5hp or larger vfd. I would also keep the gearbox. It takes some effort to connect the new motor to existing gearbox. It is also nice to connect the original variable speed knob to the vfd by replacing the potentiometer. Also nice to connect the forward reverse lever to the vfd. I have a 10ee that is set up like this. PM me and I can show some pics of the motor gearbox connection and other details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    If the fan doesn't start there's something really wrong - it's powered by 120VAC right off the main contactor through T3, I think after the 2A fuses (or single 5A if your lathe has that). So check the fuses and see if one of them is blown. If neither is blown check the supply to T3 and see if you're seeing line, it should be right from the disconnect. It's possible T3 is gone but that'd be weird.

    Once that's in the past open up the tube panel and see which of the tubes isn't firing as that's the most likely cause of the 1800 rpm issue. I'd suggest buying a couple of the non-vacuum replacements and replacing them rather than searching for a replacement as you're very likely to spend more than the current price on eBay for the semiconductor replacements.

    Here's the debug list for the modular drive:

    I'm relatively new to this foru and for some reason do not get notices through email that i have received replies...so i apologize for the late response. I do have a multimeter and figured out that the fans were on but a very low rpm. That and i noticed the green start light was dim. I switched the input AC supply wires around and voila!...fired right up and yes, only at 1800rpm. When I open up the tube compartment, I noticed the large tubeon the left was cold and the one on the right, hot. Not sure if thats right. I do have an extra used, (in unknown condition) tube. Maybe i should swap it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlchemyImagineer View Post
    When I open up the tube compartment, I noticed the large tubeon the left was cold and the one on the right, hot. Not sure if thats right. I do have an extra used, (in unknown condition) tube. Maybe i should swap it.
    Don't mean to get rude.

    Oh, screw it. That's a lie. I DO mean to get rude!

    If you have one tube dark and are holding onto a spare?

    "maybe I should swap it" would seem to make a great DEAL more sense than:

    "maybe I should just grease it and shove...."

    wudd'n yah think?

    What's to be lost by trying? If it is dead? Not a damned thing lost.

    You can always grease it later!


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    Before swapping tubes, measure the AC volts across the 2 large wires on each tube
    This is the filament voltage and it should be 2.5VAC. If the tube is cold, either it's filament is shot,
    a bad connection, or power problems with the associated transformer.

    Bill

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    What seems like years...(only because it has been), i finally diagnosed the problem with the help of Tim from Scissio Controls who I believe is a member here. Over the period of a year Tim gave me suggestion to check certain internals of my 67 10ee. It took that long as I was moving into a different home and had to move the shop. One thing I had noticed is one of the C16J tubes would not fire. Tim had me check some voltages and the likelyhood of a bad tube was at play. More time went by trying to avoid buying a $800-$1200 new/old stock tube on ebay. I found another use for them and searched that type of use and found a new/old stock for $300. Sure enough the tube fired but the machine still ran at 1500rpm. At least one problem was fixed.
    Tim had me check a couple more things and suggested that the module could have a bad capacitor and offered to diagnose it for me but that I might want to replace the smaller tube which contrls the field. Luckly I found a new/old stock for $10. Wouldn't you know it fired right up and I was able to acheive 3000rpm with it...Yeah!!!
    Tim then had me adjust the pots in the module and now my machine runs smooth and super clean. It's like having a brand new mache after the grief it was for me for the last few years.
    Thanx Tim and those few who gave me credible direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlchemyImagineer View Post
    ...One thing I had noticed is one of the C16J tubes would not fire. Tim had me check some voltages and the likelyhood of a bad tube was at play. More time went by trying to avoid buying a $800-$1200 new/old stock tube on ebay. I found another use for them and searched that type of use and found a new/old stock for $300. ...
    Here's a link to information about a solid state replacement for the C16J tubes, developed by a PM member. He sells the modules for $136:
    Cal


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