10EE drive VFD no backgear
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    Default 10EE drive VFD no backgear

    I recently purchased my second 10EE...

    Machines Used | Monarch 10EE Toolroom Lathe with Taper Attachment and Chucks


    20 years ago I went VFD with backgear and 5 hp three phase motor. Biggest job in last 20 years is adding way oil. That is why I only considered another 10EE for my second home. Allows shipping all chucks and tooling between sites as needed.

    Machine work to fit the backgear is quite a large job, but doable.

    I am considering purchase of a 900 RPM 10hp 3 phase motor and driving it with a VFD with no back gear. A gearing of 3:2 will give spindle speed range of 40 to 2400 with motor speeds of 60 to 3600. With today's VFDs will have 2/3 hp at bottom speed - plenty for threading. Top motor speed of 3600 is plenty safe.

    My google foo is poor - surely this has been done before. Comments please.

    I am NOT interested in saving the antique DC drive. Any purists here have a chance to buy this at a fair value.

    Karl

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    img_1830.jpgI used a 7.5 hp 3 phase motor (Century/Gould) mounted inside the striped out Reliance case. Chopped the reliance motor shaft off as its the input for the gearbox and mounted a lovejoy coupling to connect them. Allows the entire gearbox to be pulled out without removing the motor. Ensured proper/quick alignment of pulleys and belts, kept everything looking stock and was dead easy without a lot of extra hardware and machining. I run it through a VFD off simple spilt phase (1 phase) 250 so I don't need 3 phase wired. Like you said, add way oil and run. No fuss no muss. Can't seem to upload pics, but if you want a few and better description, just email me. Don
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1829.jpg  
    Last edited by Don's Engine; 01-28-2021 at 09:02 PM. Reason: add photo

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    Do you feel you will need a vector duty motor to handle the 240 hz needed ? Another option would be a two speed motor. You would want a two winding motor rather than a Dahlander type but many vfds can be programmed so you could run both speeds. The motor would need less hp- maybe 5 at the 1800 winding but the frame would need to be large to handle both windings. Dahlander motors are more common but the need to bridge the low leads when running high can complicate the vfd set up. Others probably know how to accomplish that though. Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    I recently purchased my second 10EE...

    Machines Used | Monarch 10EE Toolroom Lathe with Taper Attachment and Chucks


    20 years ago I went VFD with backgear and 5 hp three phase motor. Biggest job in last 20 years is adding way oil. That is why I only considered another 10EE for my second home. Allows shipping all chucks and tooling between sites as needed.

    Machine work to fit the backgear is quite a large job, but doable.

    I am considering purchase of a 900 RPM 10hp 3 phase motor and driving it with a VFD with no back gear. A gearing of 3:2 will give spindle speed range of 40 to 2400 with motor speeds of 60 to 3600. With today's VFDs will have 2/3 hp at bottom speed - plenty for threading. Top motor speed of 3600 is plenty safe.

    My google foo is poor - surely this has been done before. Comments please.
    Yes, it has been done before.

    It is in "early" PM threads, but without any details. Peter Haas had "mentioned" it in a list of all the 'generations' of 10EE over time. "Factory", not DIY.

    A 10 HP AC motor without reduction gearbox was included as "factory" attempt. Not known to me if the "factory" was the original Monarch Tool or sucessor Monarch Lathes. Not mentioned if it was 4-Pole, 6-Pole, or 8-Pole motor, either.

    It wasn't "good enough" so they dropped motor HP and went back to using the reduction gearbox. Pure guess, but it was probably a 4-Pole, not even a 6-pole?

    As yours IS an 8-Pole, and modern VFD are waaaay better now than they were in "early days", and you know in advance you do not NEED to match DC's low RPM reserve advantage OR uber slow creep (one rev in fifteen seconds, but what USE is that?) ?

    It should "JFW" without need of the reduction gears.

    At all-new prices, NEW DC motors of the type, class, and performance of the OEM, around $12,000, your rig is much less expensive, even built with 100% new parts.

    IF either of a 3 or 5 HP OEM DC motor is still decent, adding a DC Drive is cheaper.

    "Bargains" are wherever you find them on used goods.

    2CW

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    Thank you for the info. I had thought a few Monarchs were done this way back in the day. And yep the key here is newer technology VFDs and 8 pole motors. Not available several years ago. I've priced all the parts at around $2K - not bad.

    FWIW, my first 10EE is refitted just like Don's in post 2 with a three phase motor sitting inside the DC motor carcass. I seem to remember it as a putsy time consuming process.


    PS. What is the price of a single phase DC drive if the motor is rebuildable? IF (big if) I can find a shop to rebuild about what will that cost?

    I am aging and want the machine re built so it will never need to be touched while I am on this side of the grass. Just tweaking on the existing electrical to get it going again is not good enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Thank you for the info. I had thought a few Monarchs were done this way back in the day. And yep the key here is newer technology VFDs and 8 pole motors. Not available several years ago. I've priced all the parts at around $2K - not bad.

    FWIW, my first 10EE is refitted just like Don's in post 2 with a three phase motor sitting inside the DC motor carcass. I seem to remember it as a putsy time consuming process.
    Another member posted the dimensioned drawing with all the needed machined features for fab'ing a simple flat plate adaptor.

    It was sooo simple, I see no advantage in trying to use the end off a DC motor that still has value in its own right to another owner who DOES want to keep the DC motor.

    Yes, as it looked as if it was more WORK than a flat plate.

    Also - 8-pole motors tending to have large body diameters, fussier about WHICH AC motor will even fit into it at all.

    Mind - ALL that only applies when retaining the gearbox, in which case a 4 or 6 pole motor is better.

    If NO gearbox, all you need is motor mounting and adapting a dual-row pulley and NOT the one that was used on the gearbox.

    Is this a simplification over an MG, WiaD, or Modular?

    Quite the reverse!

    "Deep dive" the VFD's PCB. expand all the goods ON the PCB into a schematic?

    It may be "out-of-sight", but there is a s**tload of complexity inside a VFD's case!


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    This was an ingenious way of using what’s there to do the conversion! Pretty cool!

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    You might be tight on space, I would use a 7.5 or 10 hp 1200 rpm and size the drive pulley to your liking...Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in Montana View Post
    You might be tight on space, I would use a 7.5 or 10 hp 1200 rpm and size the drive pulley to your liking...Phil
    Twin legacy Vee "A" section belts lived a VERY long time - generally backing and body-rotted before they wore out the "driving" sidewalls - because the pulley sizes involved gives them about a five HP capability with plenty long enough life even as a single.

    Two just insured countervailing imperfections reduced possibility of "watermarking" uber-fine work, and they were not a nuisance as to stocking spares 'coz yah could run on ONE.

    Now. ....

    No space for a gearbox?

    Not HARD to enable two different BELTED ratios.

    Especially with better performing modern PolyVee / MicroVee belting.

    Salvaged Baruffaldi clutch and on-the-fly selection at flip of a switch might be considered cheating, but still.. it's what the Eyetalians BUILD them for, lo these many scores of years?

    And they have always had competition.

    Brand-new hundred-dollah ones controlling mower blades all over the groundskeeping bizness. Check ebay for listings as repair parts. Shorter life than a Baruffaldi? I'd HOPE so, given what the costs, new, are!

    2CW ... of agitation for "More progress, please. We are inventive!"

    S'pecially if it is on some other Pilgrim's dime.

    I did say "2CW"?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    I recently purchased my second 10EE...

    Machines Used | Monarch 10EE Toolroom Lathe with Taper Attachment and Chucks

    I am considering purchase of a 900 RPM 10hp 3 phase motor and driving it with a VFD with no back gear. A gearing of 3:2 will give spindle speed range of 40 to 2400 with motor speeds of 60 to 3600. With today's VFDs will have 2/3 hp at bottom speed - plenty for threading. Top motor speed of 3600 is plenty safe.
    Karl
    From an operational perspective, there's no reason why you cannot... just space, of course.

    I know this with absolute certainty, as my '43 round-dial runs with an 1800rpm Allis-Chalmers 7.5hp with a 3:1 reduction to the spindle, and a VFD running overspeed (210hz) and it works just dandy... good finish quality, and rip-my-arm-off torque, with no backgear.

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    Default My drive

    10ee-drive.jpg
    That's either a Carlisle RPP or Gates Polychain... I don't remember exactly.

    Nothing special about the motor, other than 1800rpm 230/480 of late '50's vintage, nix'd the internal cooling fan for a constant speed fan in the shroud.

    VFD is an OLD Allen-Bradley 1336 10hp (first gen) 480v drive, fed by a 7.5kva single phase transformer, 240v in, 480 out, into L1 and L3 of the 1336.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveKamp View Post
    10ee-drive.jpg
    That's either a Carlisle RPP or Gates Polychain... I don't remember exactly.

    Nothing special about the motor, other than 1800rpm 230/480 of late '50's vintage, nix'd the internal cooling fan for a constant speed fan in the shroud.

    VFD is an OLD Allen-Bradley 1336 10hp (first gen) 480v drive, fed by a 7.5kva single phase transformer, 240v in, 480 out, into L1 and L3 of the 1336.
    Yah but Dave? You actually knew your s**t.

    THESE days? That's considered "cheating"

    So it could get you attacked on Tit-stirr and a posse of fools tearing down your mailbox, throwing paint on yer front door, and burning a famous ladie's peek-a-boo lingerie store on your front lawn.. or a "Wendy's" out the back!



    "Knowing your s**t" has become "Politically incorrect". Been "cancelled" ... in favour of virtue-sgnalling "all organic" by becoming an.. well turds are generally "100% organic", yah?

    Scroom!

    Run what you gotcheded!



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    There is nothing to be gained by using a Dahlander motor with q VFD. I recently tangled with a cold saw set up that way. Except that the speed control pot is a little easier to set when the motor is switched to half speed since the lower half of the speed range is spread over the full pot. The hp at half speed is the same. The switch is a mess, many jumpers and a nightmare to hook up. Talking to the manufacturer, is was clear that some benighted engineer had originally designed it that way and over the years they had gradually changed their saws to a simple single speed motor and VFD. I did the same thing on this one, leaving the motor on high speed permanently. I don't know how a two winding motor would work.

    The DC motor with a smooth power supply, filtered, not rectified single phase, is far smoother at low speeds. If you don't want the MG, use at least a three phase Variac with a full wave rectifier feeding one of the old 3 hp DC motors with the gearbox. They are big and ugly, but they are as smooth as a servo motor. A single phase supply, unless it has some large chokes and capacitors, will drive in 120 jerks per second.

    The main problem with these conversions is losing all the fine points like field loss shut down, braking on reversing and avoiding plugging, shutting off the field current after a delay to allow braking to avoid heat buildup, etc. Getting the spindle to turn is easy but retaining all the details isn't.

    Bill

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    I'm curious, Where do you find the pulleys for your setup? I'm thinking about doing the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The DC motor with a smooth power supply, filtered, not rectified single phase, is far smoother at low speeds.
    So far, so good.


    If you don't want the MG, use at least a three phase Variac with a full wave rectifier feeding one of the old 3 hp DC motors with the gearbox. They are big and ugly, but they are as smooth as a servo motor. A single phase supply, unless it has some large chokes and capacitors, will drive in 120 jerks per second.

    The main problem with these conversions is losing all the fine points like field loss shut down, braking on reversing and avoiding plugging, shutting off the field current after a delay to allow braking to avoid heat buildup, etc. Getting the spindle to turn is easy but retaining all the details isn't.

    Bill
    You can't 120 Hz "jerk" a motor with that much combined electromagnetic and mass inertia with a Federal Court Order enforced at gunpoint!

    "Integration" happens.


    The math is called "Calculus". And you know it well.

    A low-mass fifteen-inch RCA "Voice of the Theatre" electrodynamic loudspeaker it was never, and I've had BOTH, thanks. 1938 Sparks-Withington. Push-pull 2A3. Genuine rare-bird "Class A" circuit. Blow out a kichen match at 4" off a 2 Hz wetted-head kettle drum test track a human could FEEL, but not actually HEAR.



    Smoother is just better is all.

    DIY'ing with a 3-phase Variac is outright madness, Bill. Price those at the power required.

    No feedback loop atall, either. Look good at no load?
    Sorry.. we can't make chips at no load!

    You lose NO "fine points" from shedding the CRUDE, RUDE, and gnarly antique relay-logic. All that and a lot more and BETTER is built-in to a FOUR QUADRANT DC Drive and done on smooth curves, no longer BFBI chunks.

    All the regulatory control feedback is built in. Tacho input is but an option for uber-fine granularity. RTFM. inbuilt IR-feedback and tachogenerator side-by-side figures are in a handy table.

    None of the obsolete, grubby, corroded, arcy-sparkey contactors and biased relays are any longer of any Earthly USE.

    They just INTERFERE with far more sophisticated onboard logic!

    The drive just manages all that.

    Field economizer is built-in as well. RTFM. An "I am at zero now" signal is right there on the terminal block. Use it or not.

    Doing the ENTIRE job is what a packaged drive was engineered to do.

    A-purpose.

    Same as a VFD is meant to "do it ALL" for a 3-Phase load AND NOT mess with a cabinet full of relays.

    Either one JF does what it was designed to do.

    The motor does "OK" even bare-naked at integrating the pulses, and the ripple filter is just a two wire lumped inductance in series, NO capacitors, and makes it SWEET!

    Reality. Not theory. More than just the one time.

    Can't fight that with obsolete pre-conceived mis-understandings and no-hands-on experience with a properly installed DC drive.

    It's basic PHYSICS!

    Look whom it is making the DC Drives in their tens of thousands for scores of years. ABB, Parker, Schneider, GE, Emerson, other major global names?

    Largest solid-state DC Drive stock SKU offering last time I looked?
    Fourteen THOUSAND Mike Foxtrot Dee Cee horsepower. In their files. Bigger is "custom".

    The makers aren't surviving off a once a year Church Charity fund-raising supper, are they?

    Not hardly! Big business, rather.

    Grab a cheap coat-tail off that industry.
    Hang on for a smooth and powerful ride.

    Make chips rather than anal suppositories.. er sorry... "analytical suppositions".



    Or KEEP the MG.

    Kinda neat stuff for it's era, actually. 1890's tech built with 1930's stock parts. Because they had to be already well-proven parts WEF 1940's. As they were. Not "bleeding edge" in their era.

    Fossils NOW.

    I've got one of EACH, thanks! MG and Parker SSD Drive,

    Because I AM one. A fossil! Not a DC Drive.

    et tu? "fess up ... and be proud! We have carried our load.

    I just don't expect OTHERS to be FORCED to be fossils, going-forward!

    Lead, follow.. eventually the wise just get TF out of the way.

    Can't outrun the young 'uns any longer?

    I don't fancy bein' buried with bootprints up my backside!

    Just Jouk! Set and watch them sweat .. as they trot right past yah hard at their turn in the barrel!

    "Pittsburgh-ese" thing... jouk for joy!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Heychris_1 View Post
    I'm curious, Where do you find the pulleys for your setup? I'm thinking about doing the same thing.
    Just order yesterday. could not find it on Mcmaster Carr, my go to source. found a 2.35 OD double pulley with QD bushing online Zoro

    PS getting tired of all the BS on this site so only posting the build thread over here
    Monarch 10EE rebuild 10Hp VFD no backgear | The Hobby-Machinist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Just order yesterday. could not find it on Mcmaster Carr, my go to source. found a 2.35 OD double pulley with QD bushing online Zoro

    PS getting tired of all the BS on this site so only posting the build thread over here
    Monarch 10EE rebuild 10Hp VFD no backgear | The Hobby-Machinist
    "QD" are magical. Hope the dual-row was CI. And that you at LEAST meant "PD" not "OD", because.. 2.35" IS the bare minimum the makers spec AT ALL, for an "A" section belt.

    THREE inch is about as tight as you'd want to wrap an "A" section belt, ANY HP, actual real-world, even at "fractional" HP. Less than ONE, IOW.

    Even then it struggles hard, cannot transmit much power, and lives a shortened life in the attempt at it off the back of over-tension and cyclic load dynamics. Not just heat and slip.

    Undersized sheaves is where PolyVee / MicroVee become far the better choices to move any significant power. Or even synchronous belting even if you do not NEED the "sync" feature.

    Poly/Micro AKA "serpentine" are waay cheaper as to grooved sheaves, not de-facto GEARS that toothed belts utilize.

    Need more power? Order them up to nearly foor feet WIDE in a single belt. "Coz that's how they make them.

    "Slitters" cut them narrower by rib-count. Figures are published "per-fractional HP each rib" ... to make the designer's job easier.

    Why did you THINK the auto-industry adopted them, years ago? "Cheaper than" is their only GOD!

    What you call "BS" might apply?

    "BS" had to be learnt.

    The hard way. Your turn in the barrel, is it?

    Pligrim ? ALL that "BS" has been "in the books" ever since Vee belts were still a new concept! Same-again every OTHER form of power transmission.

    Never mind the old "dead tree" books from the MAKERS. Morse or Browning's beloved ass-saver books were the size of a major-city PHONE book! And save yer ass they did.

    Google would have found easier tools ... had you but looked:

    Notes on Pulleys and Belts

    Just run the calculations for your ten HP .... trying to get across 2.35 PD.

    Annnnd you finally got the proper venue for your VFD downgrade too!
    Hobbiests and hard heads.

    Win-Win situation? Good on yah!

    Good luck with the belt-budget..... "Squeaky-Karl"!


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    Yep, you should be proud of yourself for chasing another person away. AND never giving any decent help to anyone - just spewing BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Yep, you should be proud of yourself for chasing another person away. AND never giving any decent help to anyone - just spewing BS.
    "Any knowledge sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from bullshit to the lazy?"

    .. is it now? Or was it "magic" and "savages"?

    "Rocket Science"? "decent help?" Some seem to appreciate it.

    Ain't a damned thing "advanced" in it! You've simply skipped the class!

    There hasn't been a bit of "mystery" about Vee-belt belt drives in the better part of a hundred years, over FIFTY years for Poly/Micro Vee, Gilmers pre-date War TWO, and the Pirelli "RPP" patents are from the early 1980's!

    All this s**t is all over the place online NOW just as it was in BOOKS 60 years ago!

    NONE of it will reach out and bite the ignorant on the ass. Until AFTER they get it wrong!

    Guess the advance warning is PM's job, then?

    Whatever gets the job done SUCCESSFULLY ... rather than encourage yet-another FAILURE work for yah?

    What part of "Practical" rather than "Hobby" did you MISS?

    I am pleased to help those who CAN BE HELPED! Not alone in that atall.

    Fool and idiots I/we leave to their choice of ear buds, recreational drugs, and even MORE foolish political cesspools

    A person actually WANTS help?

    They start by being willing to LEARN! And do THEIR "homework".

    Not prove they are lazier and foolisher, by doing dumb shit harder and faster than the LAST fool - while "good buddies" hold his stale beer and tell him what a freakin' GENIUS he is!

    How wise are THEY?

    If no desire to learn? Just don't.

    I get the same paycheck, regardless.

    ==

    Might want to USE that power-transmission calculator, snowflake?

    Here's another one.

    Belt Cross Section Calculator, Minimum Pulley Diameter

    There are dozens. See Gates. Invest a WEEK.

    https://assets.gates.com/content/dam...eltidchart.pdf

    Learn a LOT

    What perecentage of your alleged power is even deliverable at present, and did you gain?

    Or actually LOSE? MOST especially at the hope of having enough LOW END torque to overcome lack of reduction gearing?

    Ten HP, no gearbox ..... most of the HP spent roasting rubber?



    Then EITHER..

    Add rows of "A" section. See ATW "Pacemaker" HS.

    Grab yer dividing head, HSS-Cobalt profile tool grinding and gearmaking fu... fab a new sheave for the spindle. Pirelli parabolic tooth profile "RPP".

    A sync belt that has a fair chance for the ratio, the ration of HP, and the GOAL to NOT have excessive "cogging" watermarking the surface of fine work. Which a Gilmer trapezoidal WILL do. Cog.

    ELSE WIDE PolyVee / MicroVee.

    Cheaper, By a LOT. Dead EASY to cut the grooves.

    Use the common .47 HP per-rib one. You will still need over 20 ribs?

    But you can DO it.

    You can even AFFORD it!

    Otherwise? You may as well drop an R2800 radial into a Honda Civic.

    Stick with stock tires! Get your rocks off on rubber-stink for the "drama" in it.

    Oh.. BTW..

    Ever you DID deliver a full ten HP to the spindle?

    Rip the compound right TF off the topslide.

    Monarch built OTHER lathes to rip-chip. Ever heard of a Series 90?
    12 & 16 CK? 60 Series?

    10EE doesn't need that. It had an important niche of its own.

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    Termite why do you not start your own thread it would make it easier to ignore. As others have said you are not a machinist, have never made anything in living memory, don't have a running lathe and just repeat what others have said or done. If you want to post your bs do it in your own new thread instead of constantly polluting other peoples.
    Bob

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