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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    There was only ONE change, big bang onward, when two lubes were commoned-up because they were mixing with each other, anyway. Yours is in that latter-day class.
    My '42 and '44 "round dials" both predate it, use one more lube type, have more chambers and sight glasses.

    All that is in PM's threads with cross-refs to the modern lubes. ALSO places to purchase each in smaller containers than 55 gal or 5 gal pails.

    My most recent one-gallon of DTE Light for the spindle bearings came from an Aircraft fixed-base operations support vendor, "USE-ENCO" having been put to death by MSC!

    Newly- anointed minder of a 10EE gets his credentials from King or Congress, it is wise to allocate a month or so of evenings and at least "scan" everything in PM's Monarch forum.

    Not so as to memorize it. Just so you know it IS in there already, and many times, not just the once.

    Thereafter, you'll have a better idea what to ask it to find, and Google can find it for you pretty quickly. Knowing more make your questions easier to handle, both sides, too.

    No fear. Its really a simple lathe. Just an uncommonly well executed and seriously long-lived flavour of "simple".
    Thanks thermite, reading this thread about oil..what oil?, prior to asking here, has left me wondering what the difference between DTE heavy medium hydraulic oil and circulating oil is. As the previous thread doesn't specify and I would like to use the correct oil in the headstock. Maybe I should even use the ISO-32 instead of 68 since my lathe will be in an unheated shop in northern Ohio which should be all to familiar to you being in Virginia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Thanks thermite, reading this thread about oil..what oil?, prior to asking here, has left me wondering what the difference between DTE heavy medium hydraulic oil and circulating oil is. As the previous thread doesn't specify and I would like to use the correct oil in the headstock. Maybe I should even use the ISO-32 instead of 68 since my lathe will be in an unheated shop in northern Ohio which should be all to familiar to you being in Virginia.
    I'm actually from Lewis County WBGA by way of a Corvallis, Oregon conception and a Pissburgh PA birth, War Two thing... but hey..

    Akron, Ohio being the economic capitol of WBGVA off the back of expat labour back in the day, yah, I know the climate...

    But I have no patent on that. Don't MESS with what Monarch Machine Tool AKA "The Lion of Sidney" recommended!

    Look on a map.

    Where is Sidney, Ohio?


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'm actually from Lewis County WBGA by way of a Corvallis, Oregon conception and a Pissburgh PA birth, War Two thing... but hey..

    Akron, Ohio being the economic capitol of WBGVA off the back of expat labour back in the day, yah, I know the climate...

    But I have no patent on that. Don't MESS with what Monarch Machine Tool AKA "The Lion of Sidney" recommended!

    Look on a map.

    Where is Sidney, Ohio?

    Northwest of Columbus, Ohio. Looks to be about 2 hours drive from me being right on Lake Erie. Ok, then I'll stick with the ISO 68 for the headstock. Thanks for all you input!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Here's what I recommend:

    Mobil DTE Light for headstock bearings
    Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium for headstock center reservoir, quick-change gearbox and backgear
    Mobil Vactra #2 for apron and tailstock


    Man, I get tired of this discussion:

    Mobil DTE 24 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Light
    Mobil DTE 26 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium

    Let there be light!! Thanks Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    The Fincor drive in my lathe was likely done 10-15 years after the early attempts. It uses an armature drive and a field drive with a field loss board and, uses the big Monarch transformer to get an honest 230 volts at the motor.
    Do you have a schematic? Photos would also be helpful.

    I have intended to start a Fincor thread for a while now. There are at least three of us here. Last summer I photographed schematics for a Fincor driven 10ee. They are fairly readable, and I just need to do a bit more image enhancement. Haven't yet verified whether the numbering scheme matches my machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Do you have a schematic? Photos would also be helpful.

    I have intended to start a Fincor thread for a while now. There are at least three of us here. Last summer I photographed schematics for a Fincor driven 10ee. They are fairly readable, and I just need to do a bit more image enhancement. Haven't yet verified whether the numbering scheme matches my machine.
    The hookup schematics? The drive specs themselves are still online, couple of places.

    I don't recall the M/N for 230 VDC-out though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Thanks thermite, reading this thread about oil..what oil?, prior to asking here, has left me wondering what the difference between DTE heavy medium hydraulic oil and circulating oil is. As the previous thread doesn't specify and I would like to use the correct oil in the headstock. Maybe I should even use the ISO-32 instead of 68 since my lathe will be in an unheated shop in northern Ohio which should be all to familiar to you being in Virginia.
    and apparently there's still some confusion. . .

    DTE Heavy Medium IS a circulating oil! It IS NOT an hydraulic oil! There is a HUGE difference between the two: hydraulic oils are engineered to transfer force to moving actuators; circulating oils are engineered to lubricate gears, bearings and the like. Yes, hydraulic oils also lubricate things, but that IS NOT their primary function. Circulating oils could probably be used to move hydraulic cylinders, but they are not the best choice for that application, just as an hydraulic oil is NOT the best choice to lubricate a 10EE's headstock.

    In general, hydraulic oils are intended to be used in close, pressurized systems the include filters to remove debris from the oil. Additives are put in the oil to keep debris in suspension until the filter can remove them. Many circulating oil applications, such as the 10EE, don't have filters and the oil should be engineered to allow the debris to settle harmlessly to the bottom, rather than be constantly recirculated across the gears and bearings. Either an oil has such additives or it doesn't--you can't have it both ways.

    Further, high-end hydraulic oils like Mobile DTE 10 Excel 32 (which apparently replaces DTE 32) need to have an additive package that's compatible with the exotic alloys and polymers used in high-end hydraulic systems. Some of the additives that, for example, might have the best anti-foaming or rust-inhibiting properties, may be incompatible with high-end hydraulic pumps or servo valves.

    You have a newer 10EE with a single sight glass, which means you need ISO-32 oil in the headstock, regardless of where you live. Mobil DTE Light is the ISO-32 oil that's best for the job. Older machines, with three sight glass headstocks, use DTE Light in the bearings and DTE Heavy-Medium (ISO-68) in the center reservoir.

    Go look at the descriptions for the Mobile DTE Named Series circulating oils, which includes DTE Heavy Medium and DTE Light (link). Compare that to DTE 10 Excel 32 hydraulic oil (link). Note the repeated use of the work "filter" in the hydraulic oil, and its absence in the circulating oils. Decide for yourself which one sounds more like your application.

    Cal

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  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    and apparently there's still some confusion. . .

    DTE Heavy Medium IS a circulating oil! It IS NOT an hydraulic oil! There is a HUGE difference between the two: hydraulic oils are engineered to transfer force to moving actuators; circulating oils are engineered to lubricate gears, bearings and the like. Yes, hydraulic oils also lubricate things, but that IS NOT their primary function. Circulating oils could probably be used to move hydraulic cylinders, but they are not the best choice for that application, just as an hydraulic oil is NOT the best choice to lubricate a 10EE's headstock.

    In general, hydraulic oils are intended to be used in close, pressurized systems the include filters to remove debris from the oil. Additives are put in the oil to keep debris in suspension until the filter can remove them. Many circulating oil applications, such as the 10EE, don't have filters and the oil should be engineered to allow the debris to settle harmlessly to the bottom, rather than be constantly recirculated across the gears and bearings. Either an oil has such additives or it doesn't--you can't have it both ways.

    Further, high-end hydraulic oils like Mobile DTE 10 Excel 32 (which apparently replaces DTE 32) need to have an additive package that's compatible with the exotic alloys and polymers used in high-end hydraulic systems. Some of the additives that, for example, might have the best anti-foaming or rust-inhibiting properties, may be incompatible with high-end hydraulic pumps or servo valves.

    You have a newer 10EE with a single sight glass, which means you need ISO-32 oil in the headstock, regardless of where you live. Mobil DTE Light is the ISO-32 oil that's best for the job. Older machines, with three sight glass headstocks, use DTE Light in the bearings and DTE Heavy-Medium (ISO-68) in the center reservoir.

    Go look at the descriptions for the Mobile DTE Named Series circulating oils, which includes DTE Heavy Medium and DTE Light (link). Compare that to DTE 10 Excel 32 hydraulic oil (link). Note the repeated use of the work "filter" in the hydraulic oil, and its absence in the circulating oils. Decide for yourself which one sounds more like your application.

    Cal
    Cal, there was a misunderstanding on my part until I read a thread in which you explained it. Check Post #64 in this thread where I thanked you for your explanation of the two differences in the Mobil oil. Purchase exactly what you recommended from McMaster today. Thanks again very much!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Do you have a schematic? Photos would also be helpful.

    I have intended to start a Fincor thread for a while now. There are at least three of us here. Last summer I photographed schematics for a Fincor driven 10ee. They are fairly readable, and I just need to do a bit more image enhancement. Haven't yet verified whether the numbering scheme matches my machine.
    I have a few drawing from the install with field notes but not a full schematic, I do have the manuals on both drives. There was a drawing I got in an email from Fincor with more detail but it was on a drive I haven't recovered.

    Steve

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    Ok guys cleaning and fixing at the same time so here is a couple questions.

    1. Under the the spindle on the right side in the housing is what look like a weep hole of some type. After running my lathe for a couple minutes and warming it up it leaks a small amount of headstock oil out that hole and looks like it is pulsating. I haven't taken the chuck off yet but it sure looks like it is coming out that hole and not out the bottom of the spindle/housing.

    2. No oil coming out the oil ports for the cross slide or the ways. Cross slide for sure as I have it off and ran it for a good 5-10 minutes with nothing showing. Drained the apron to try to run some transmission fluid in it first but very little oil came out the drain port and the sight glass stayed at the full mark. Therefore I removed the sump for the oil pump, actually both bottom sumps thinking they were one long solid piece. Anyway removed the pump and haven't immersed it oil yet to test it but the sight glass is still at full, f'ning hilarious kinda. So, have to go to HF tomorrow to get a spanner to remove the sight glass (Thanks Thermite for the tip~~). The sump had quite a bit of sludge in the bottom of it but all the parts above including gears / oil pump are nice and clean. Hoping there just wasn't enough oil in the apron for it to pump out to the extremities.... There was a cork gasket on the oil sump but no gasket on the sump to the right of it (tail stock direction).

    3. There is a tiny bit of clacking coming from the feed rod and appears to being the housing at the tailstock end when run a max rpm (1200) for my machine. Is that normal? Nothing on the manual lube chart for those bearings that I can see.

    4. Behind the oil sump on the apron is a cast housing below the feed rod with a what appears to be "drain plug". What is that for? Don't see it anywhere in the manual.

    Really sorry for all the questions / have google a lot of stuff and been reading most of the day, did I say the search capabilities on this forum S**k!! No way to refine your search for exact words etc. Google site search is my best friend!

    Anyway thanks for listening to me on my quest to make some chips with this beast and I definitely appreciate all you guys have to offer. Have more questions but long day today and thought I would fire a couple out there to get going.

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    Pics so that you can't say it didn't happen.........
    20181013_200335.jpg20181013_200306.jpg20181013_200318.jpg

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    On my larger monarch the cross slide and apron are oiled when apron is moving. Some sort of cam in there to operate the pump.
    You can use diesel to soak the parts in and also flush out the lines. IF you flush the lines be sure to remove the metering heads so they do not plug up with grime. Some guys just put in new ones at this time.

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    thermite, you the man! That HF adjustable spanner works like a charm for removing the sight glass rings.... Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    1. Under the the spindle on the right side in the housing is what look like a weep hole of some type. After running my lathe for a couple minutes and warming it up it leaks a small amount of headstock oil out that hole and looks like it is pulsating. I haven't taken the chuck off yet but it sure looks like it is coming out that hole and not out the bottom of the spindle/housing.
    That's normal(ish). There's an overflow at the back of the headstock under the pulleys with a 1/8" tube that runs underneath, so if the headstock is a little over on oil it'll come out there.


    2. No oil coming out the oil ports for the cross slide or the ways. Cross slide for sure as I have it off and ran it for a good 5-10 minutes with nothing showing.
    I use Oileater to clean the oil sights, it eats up the oxidized oil with no fuss. Works a bit better warm.

    When you reattach the pump and fill the sump run the cross slide feed with no cross slide dial, that'll operate the pump automatically and you should see some oil sooner or later. If you don't you'll have find the failure working up from the sump at the top of the apron through the manifold under the saddle.

    3. There is a tiny bit of clacking coming from the feed rod and appears to being the housing at the tailstock end when run a max rpm (1200) for my machine. Is that normal? Nothing on the manual lube chart for those bearings that I can see.
    I recall having to pull those bearings by removing the mount, but mine has ELSR and a non-ELSR might be easier.

    4. Behind the oil sump on the apron is a cast housing below the feed rod with a what appears to be "drain plug". What is that for? Don't see it anywhere in the manual.
    Maybe a picture? There's something like what you describe on the ELSR that looks a bit like an oil plug but actually is a stop for the ELSR arm. Maybe you're talking about the drain under the worm gear?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Ok guys cleaning and fixing at the same time so here is a couple questions.

    1. Under the the spindle on the right side in the housing is what look like a weep hole of some type. After running my lathe for a couple minutes and warming it up it leaks a small amount of headstock oil out that hole and looks like it is pulsating. I haven't taken the chuck off yet but it sure looks like it is coming out that hole and not out the bottom of the spindle/housing.
    The "front bearing retainer" is a cast ring that sits around the end of the spindle and held on with 6 bolts. There is a small vent hole at 6 O'clock that drains oil from the labyrinth seal on the front of the spindle. If the vent isn't at 6 O'clock, then someone installed the retainer in the wrong orientation. The vent hole is small and often gets painted shut.

    If the leak is coming from somewhere else, please post a photo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    2. No oil coming out the oil ports for the cross slide or the ways. Cross slide for sure as I have it off and ran it for a good 5-10 minutes with nothing showing. Drained the apron to try to run some transmission fluid in it first but very little oil came out the drain port and the sight glass stayed at the full mark. Therefore I removed the sump for the oil pump, actually both bottom sumps thinking they were one long solid piece. Anyway removed the pump and haven't immersed it oil yet to test it but the sight glass is still at full, f'ning hilarious kinda. ...
    If the sight glass still look full when the apron is drained, then it's probably stained with old oil/varnish. Pull the sight glass, as discussed elsewhere, and clean the lens with a fine polish like Flitz.

    You need to pull the cross-slide, saddle and apron. Clean and inspect everything. It's very typical that some or all of the Bijur metering units are plugged and won't pass oil. Even brand new, they don't pass much oil; a drop every minute or two when pressurized to 15 PSI is about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    3. There is a tiny bit of clacking coming from the feed rod and appears to being the housing at the tailstock end when run a max rpm (1200) for my machine. Is that normal? Nothing on the manual lube chart for those bearings that I can see.
    Not normal. When you pull the apron, inspect and grease the bearings in the right end bracket.

    I added grease fittings to my round-dial's right bearing bracket:
    img_2516.jpg
    (Sorry about the forum's lame handling of photos, resulting in this one being rotated.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    4. Behind the oil sump on the apron is a cast housing below the feed rod with a what appears to be "drain plug". What is that for? Don't see it anywhere in the manual.
    That's a drain for the feed-rod's worm gear sump. Don't be surprised if no oil comes out; your sump probably has more swarf in it than oil. Before you re-install the apron, fill the sump with oil to the bottom of the feed rod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Really sorry for all the questions / have google a lot of stuff and been reading most of the day, did I say the search capabilities on this forum S**k!! No way to refine your search for exact words etc. Google site search is my best friend!
    Google site search doesn't seem to work properly anymore and misses a lot of stuff. There is an advanced search. Go to the blue bar at the top of the forum page. Select "Search Forum Discussions", that should get you to advanced search, if not, there should be a link somewhere on the page for advanced search. On advance search, use the "Search Single Content Type" tab, then select the Monarch forum in the "Search in Forums" list. You can search by keyword and/or user name. The "Show results as posts" option is sometimes very useful.

    Cal

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  21. #76
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    Thanks Cal and Rk appreciate the input... Start digging in more tomorow. See where it takes me. Thanks again!

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    Cal, are the o-rings you used for your sight glasses flat? Will round ones work without putting a groove in the bezel?

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    Ok, I was wrong on the headstock/spindle leak. It is actually leaking out the gap between the spindle D1 collar and the cast housing with 6 allen head screws on it. The collar seems to sling it out a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock depending on the direction of the chuck. This is about 15 minutes of oil leaked at 500rpm.
    20181016_192115.jpg

    Oil pump was checked and pumps oil therefore I put it back in and filled the apron with tranny fluid and am letting it run for an hour or so to see if anything comes out the cross slide ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Ok, I was wrong on the headstock/spindle leak. It is actually leaking out the gap between the spindle D1 collar and the cast housing with 6 allen head screws on it. The collar seems to sling it out a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock depending on the direction of the chuck. This is about 15 minutes of oil leaked at 500rpm.
    20181016_192115.jpg
    ...
    The "cast housing with 6 allen head screws on it" is called the front bearing retainer. The drain hole in the bottom is probably blocked.

    Here's a diagram of a three sight glass 10EE headstock showing the front spindle bearings:

    The red line at 6 O'clock shows you where find the drain hole. Any oil that accumulates in annular cavity that the hole drains will get slung out around the spindle if the drain hole is plugged. It's only about 1/8" in diameter and they frequently get painted shut.

    There's also a return passage, similar the one shown in light blue in this diagram:

    It returns oil from the front bearing into the center sump. The passage may be blocked, allowing excess oil to accumulate at the front bearing and migrate into the annular cavity of the front bearing retainer. The only way to check that is to pull the spindle, which is not something that I would recommend in this situation.

    Yes, the O-rings that I used for my sight glasses have a square cross-section, but a round O-ring should work just fine.

    Cal

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    Thanks Cal for the the response. In looking at the diagrams you supplied (I'm not an engineer, so forgive how I see the drawing), the purple would be the front bearing retainer. Is the D1 collar on the spindle removable and then the front bearing retainer could be removed just the clean out the oil lines in question with a guitar string or something of that nature. I had topped off the headstock prior to running it last night and after about 1.5 hours of running at 500rpm it was at the bottom of the sight glass, which really isn't all that much but if it is a blocked oil passage it would be nice to clear it. Would air pressure on low psi maybe clear it out backwards?

    Thanks....
    Nick


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