10ee Kinamatic / Back Gear issues:
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  1. #1
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    Default 10ee Kinamatic / Back Gear issues:

    Ok,need some help with some preliminary thoughts on this problem. Have heard some strange noises coming from the back gear area for a while now but it comes and goes. Sounds like a loose flywheel that is struck occasionally and makes a musical chime when it does occur. So I finally took the cover off the back gear and everything seemed ok as far as wear but you guys can be the verdict on that. Didn't solve the problem of rotating that shaft of the Kinamatic and hear that musical clank every once in a while as I was rotating the shaft of the motor. I'm attaching some pics of the inside of the back gears and also an audio clip of the noise coming from behind the back gear casing in the armature area of the motor. At least that is where it sounds like it is coming from. Give me some ideas of where to go from here please. Also note that I'm getting some spikes in RPM's lately as thought there is power surges, these happen randomly.
    20190626_150037.jpg20190626_150054.jpg

    Audio coming:


    1968 Square dial with Kinamatic 5HP motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Didn't solve the problem of rotating that shaft of the Kinamatic and hear that musical clank every once in a while as I was rotating the shaft of the motor.
    .
    .

    1968 Square dial with ^^ GE ^^ Kinamatic 5HP motor.
    Sounds as if you have isolated gearbox and motor by enough to have ruled-out dog-clutch floating and clanging, then? Actuating linkage adjustment and interlock switch to be sorted, if not.

    If you are certain it is the motor.. Reliance guy, not GE, but... does this motor have an internal cooling fan mounted to the shaft, and if so, has it come adrift?

    Usually found at the small-shaft / tachogenerator mount end. Opposite where power is taken-off.

    May as well clean it, put new bearings in, refurb commutator, brushes, and holder/tampers while you are inside it, as that can buy one another coupla decades of low-risk operation.

    A new Reliance 5 HP of similar application listed at a MSRP of over USD$ 11,000 a year or three ago. No wonder folks downgrade to a VFD drive!

    Well worth taking care of what you have..



    2CW

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    Looking at a manual that I just found on the internet, I think that the fan you speak of is in the rear of the motor farthest from the back gears. This sounds as though it's coming from just behind the back gears where I believe the commutator section is. Haven't pulled the motor out yet. Are parts still available for this motor from 1968? In searching forum posts, I see the Kinamatic 5HP motor is hard to come by nowadays but parts are the question. It still runs, so I hope that is a good sign. For some reason I can't log into my website server to host the audio that I recorded. I'll try again tomorrow morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Looking at a manual that I just found on the internet, I think that the fan you speak of is in the rear of the motor farthest from the back gears. This sounds as though it's coming from just behind the back gears where I believe the commutator section is. Haven't pulled the motor out yet. Are parts still available for this motor from 1968? In searching forum posts, I see the Kinamatic 5HP motor is hard to come by nowadays but parts are the question. It still runs, so I hope that is a good sign. For some reason I can't log into my website server to host the audio that I recorded. I'll try again tomorrow morning.
    As your one is still running, it will be rebuildable. Monarch is where first to check for brushes. As with the Reliance ones, they are likely to no longer be a catalog item. Monarch knows what to spec (from Helweg Carbon for the 3 HP "large Frame"). Monarch "may" even have to order in batches, wait-out the lead-time, stock a small amount themselves. These types of motors were never as common as ordinarier ones, even less-so, now.

    Bearings are.. bearings. Those for motors are cheap as dirt, compared to SPINDLE bearings, have their own P/N's.

    PM Member everettengr discovered a BENT brush holder - tracking the commutator at an angle - when he opened up his Kinematic.

    You need to get eyeballs/camera onto it more than sound clips.

    There may not be even ONE other PM member who has heard that specific sound (I was in 'nam most of that year, tending to a coupla 100 HP GE 416 VAC 3-P motors that ran air-compressors for liquid oxygen production. The GE motors were near-as-dammit the ONLY thing in the Korean War veteran Oxygen plants that did NOT break! Normal hearing among those other casualties.

    OTOH, there are many PM'ers who can ID problems with the rest, off more generic DC motor visual klews.

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    I don't think that's normal.......
    20190627_162741-1-.jpg
    Sorry it's sideways, uploaded straight from my phone.

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    I have run into these motors packed with dirt and stuff, I have mentioned many times here regarding the module drive machines, that the motor needs to be in top shape for the drive to work like it should with a snappy response.
    The fan system draws dirty air in just below the motor, apparently they should be service in less then a 50+ year interval.

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    Thanks donie, got to take a few more pics and write down the wiring before I pull it out and look inside. Hoping it's nothing serious wrong with the old girl. I'll bet she weighs a couple hundred pounds.

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    I have a MG driven machine with the big open 3hp motor, it seems to be more self cleaning then the newer compact 5hp motors.

    It was pointed out to me long ago, one gear that should not be shifted with the machine in motion is the backgear. Even though, on module machines, they have a safety solenoid to prevent the backgear from shifting above 200rpms, it still grinds the crap out of the faces of the gear teeth, and runs that metal through the expensive bearings.
    Generally the only knob that should be shifted in motion is the CDE knob for a quick selection of 3 power feeds, though, the feed clutches should be disengaged, and reasonable discretion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    I don't think that's normal.......
    20190627_162741-1-.jpg
    Sorry it's sideways, uploaded straight from my phone.
    Uhh.. more "WTF?" actually, than "normal".

    Looks more like processed paper or textile fiber debris than limestone deposits or hailstones, but do, please, enlighten us as you proceed!

    Meanwhile ..don't eat of it....


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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I have a MG driven machine with the big open 3hp motor, it seems to be more self cleaning then the newer compact 5hp motors.
    "Less self dirtying" actually. No cooling fan on those larger "open frame" type motors.

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    Well the answer has revealed itself. You be the judge of my problem:
    20190628_154448.jpg20190628_154400.jpg20190628_154405.jpg20190628_154414.jpg20190628_154434.jpg
    I'm sure you can figure out who the culprit was. So the two bottom covers for the brushes/commutator were left off, evidently for airflow which was ok in a shop environment but not in a garage in Ohio setting for a couple of years unused. On the otherhand, I'm one happy camper as everything inside appears to be in very good shape and the backgears were in good shape. I got some stainless wire mesh to cover the bottom ports and still allow airflow without new residents moving in. I'll finish putting it back in the lathe tomorrow and take for a test run. Man, did I say I'm happy about this!!!

    Crap sorry again for the sideways pics, kinda in a hurry. The pic with the walnut below the brush is where the covers should be and will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Well the answer has revealed itself. You be the judge of my problem:
    20190628_154448.jpg20190628_154400.jpg20190628_154405.jpg20190628_154414.jpg20190628_154434.jpg
    I'm sure you can figure out who the culprit was. So the two bottom covers for the brushes/commutator were left off, evidently for airflow which was ok in a shop environment but not in a garage in Ohio setting for a couple of years unused. On the otherhand, I'm one happy camper as everything inside appears to be in very good shape and the backgears were in good shape. I got some stainless wire mesh to cover the bottom ports and still allow airflow without new residents moving in. I'll finish putting it back in the lathe tomorrow and take for a test run. Man, did I say I'm happy about this!!!

    Crap sorry again for the sideways pics, kinda in a hurry. The pic with the walnut below the brush is where the covers should be and will be.
    Someone else will know where the "major" openings are on a WiaD or Module drive's base.

    On the Round-Dial, where one wants rodent-resistant wire mesh is covering the big azures in the BOTTOM of the base casting (under the motor plate as well as under the MG).

    That way, covers kept ON, the motor won't even be within their reach, nor will wire, DC panel - whatever else.

    Insects, OTOH...

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    The module machine I have was made later, the motor is a 5hp Louis Allis Flexitorque, similar to the GE, the lower brush covers were left off at the factory. Might be a good idea to research that before installing lower covers.
    Your motor looks really clean inside, must be low hours.

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    Yep, my lower covers were also left off. I'm just going to put some wire mesh as covers so that it can still force air through there but not allow the rodents. Most if not all of this damage was done while it sat idle in a old garage for years. My original pics of the lathe show all the walnuts and everything else the mice and chipmunks dragged into this thing. I just never thought about or knew the lower covers were off the motor as you can't see them when the motor is installed.
    Last edited by Zap921; 06-30-2019 at 07:32 PM.

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    Well, back together and everything is running smooth as ever. Here is the rodent proof screens now installed.
    20190630_144005.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Well, back together and everything is running smooth as ever. Here is the rodent proof screens now installed.
    20190630_144005.jpg
    Two things...... given that you'll still want to inspect them at least "now and then" for INSECTS making a home on or in the mesh - blocking it.

    - Old skewl: mechanic's inspection mirror on a telescoping wand.

    - Modern-day: selfie-stick and run your phone/camera into places of this sort periodically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Well the answer has revealed itself. You be the judge of my problem:
    20190628_154448.jpg20190628_154400.jpg20190628_154405.jpg20190628_154414.jpg20190628_154434.jpg
    I'm sure you can figure out who the culprit was. So the two bottom covers for the brushes/commutator were left off, evidently for airflow which was ok in a shop environment but not in a garage in Ohio setting for a couple of years unused. On the otherhand, I'm one happy camper as everything inside appears to be in very good shape and the backgears were in good shape. I got some stainless wire mesh to cover the bottom ports and still allow airflow without new residents moving in. I'll finish putting it back in the lathe tomorrow and take for a test run. Man, did I say I'm happy about this!!!

    Crap sorry again for the sideways pics, kinda in a hurry. The pic with the walnut below the brush is where the covers should be and will be.
    You should feel lucky! Com is looking great! It will clean up handsomely. It will take some work, but that is the single most important thing to keep clean and tuned up in a DC motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    You should feel lucky! Com is looking great! It will clean up handsomely. It will take some work, but that is the single most important thing to keep clean and tuned up in a DC motor.
    Thanks and boy do I feel lucky!

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    I wouldn't do anything to that commutator. The motor has probably been refurbished in the recent past since factories typically didn't paint everything with red Glyptal. That may well be the original commutator, never turned because the undercuts look too good for the average motor shop.

    These motors seem to use a brush composition that puts the wear on the brushes instead of the copper. The Modular that I look after is in everyday use in a job shop and its commutator looks like yours. The bottom covers are off that one also, but it is surprisingly clean, probably because the owners are careful about sweeping up.

    I have a spare 5 hp GE motor from a 10EE that was parted out because most of was worn out. The back gears are badly worn but the commutator looks perfect. This motor had covers on the lower openings, obviously shop made and with different screws. I have no way of knowing how much or how hard it was run that way but there is no sign of overheating.

    Bill

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    The motor looks newer then 50yrs old, I was wondering if the rest of the machine is like that, there are ones like that out there.


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