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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    I may have multiple issues going on.
    Nah. Just the one.




    Neglect.

    Long years of it, probably?

    As said, "low" need of maintenance is not the same as "zero".

    No fear. Cheap enough to fix.

    With power OFF, (disconnected and locked-out) get a dental mirror, a camera on a "selfie-stick, or your handy-dandy automotive endoscope in to where you have sight of worn-out brushes.,, and blackened commutator.. and MAYBE bent brush holders, but probably not. Crudded-up, maybe.

    - call or email Terri at Monarch with your serial number to order new brushes.

    You'll also want a NARROW "commutator stone". Grainger/Zoro have several:

    Loose:

    Buy Commutator Maintenance Products

    Same again, Penn Tool:

    Made in USA Brush Seater & Commutator Cleaner Medium Grade BRSRX13MH - 48990733 - Penn Tool Co., Inc

    Or mounted on a handle:

    Buy Commutator Maintenance Products

    Don't use these with the power ON!

    NO NEED!

    As happens, there is an "A" section Vee-belt pulley on EACH OF:

    - the final-drive motor
    - the exciter
    - the main generator (arcing...)

    To use the stone, spin those, power-OFF still.. at a modest rate with anything you can get a vee-belt to. Salvaged warshing machine motor. Power drill.. whatever yah have.

    Details on PM.

    Just tellin' yah it is no big deal.

    Tedious? Maybe.

    But once put right it will last for YEARS again. LONG years, actually.

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  3. #22
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    [QUOTE=thermite;3813169]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    I may have multiple issues going on.

    Nah. Just the one.




    Neglect.

    Low need of maintenance is not the same as "zero".

    No fear. Cheap enough to fix.

    With power OFF, (disconnected and locked-out) get a demntal mirror, a camera on a "selfie-stick, or your handy-dandy automotive endoscope in to where you have sight of worn-out brushes.

    - call or email Terri at Monarch with your serial number to order new ones.

    You'll also want a NARROW "commutator stone". Grainger/Zoor have several:

    Loose:

    Buy Commutator Maintenance Products

    Or mounted:

    Made in USA Brush Seater & Commutator Cleaner Medium Grade BRSRX13MH - 48990733 - Penn Tool Co., Inc

    Don't use these with the power ON! NO NEED!

    As happens, there is an "A" section Vee-blot pulley on EACH OF the final-drive motor, and each of the exciter and main generator shafts.

    Spin those, power-OFF still.. at a modest rate with anything you can get a vee-belt to. Salvaged warshing machine motor. Power drill.. whatever yah have.

    Details on PM.

    Just tellin' yah it is no big deal.

    Tedious? Maybe.

    But once put right it will last for YEARS again.
    Awesome. Thanks, I'll call today.

    Definitely lack of maintenance but honestly on the part of the last 75 years of ownership.

    I might run this machine in a year what a machine shop would do in a week.

    It should lead a fairly mundane and relaxing life from here on out.10ee losing spindle speed



    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  4. #23
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    This is a post from another Thread by CAL

    Cal Posted

    OK, the actual DC control of a motor/generator (MG) machine’s spindle motor is done by the tandem pair of Ohmite rheostats. What you’re calling the “DC Controller” is properly called the DC Control Panel. It’s nothing more than a bunch of relays and a few overload devices that perform functions like: turning the spindle motor on/off; reversing the spindle motor; preventing the operator from plug reversing it; dynamic braking; and handling acceleration under load (field acceleration). But the actual speed control is done by the rheostats.

    The 10EE’s MG and rheostats are part of a Ward-Leonard drive system. In a Ward-Leonard drive, the drive motor operates in two regions: base speed and field weakening. Below base speed, the drive applies full voltage to the motor’s field windings and varies the armature voltage from zero (for zero speed) to full voltage, for the motor’s “base speed”, 690 RPM for a 10EE. In the field weakening region, the armature voltage is at maximum and the field voltage it reduced, causing the motor’s speed to increase well above base speed; a 10EE’s spindle motor with the field fully weakened will run at 2400 RPM (without load).

    The Generator Rheostat (GR) is connected as a rheostat. Its windings are connected between E1 and E2 via contacts on the F or R relay. Depending on how it's set, terminal GF2 will have a voltage that varies from 0 to 115 VDC. The GR is specially wound so that its resistance only varies for half of its range. In the upper half of the speed control’s mechanical range the GR has zero resistance between GR1 and GF1, connecting the generator’s field directly to the exciter’s 115 VDC output. Note that the GR’s windings have voltage across them any time that the F or R relay is closed; they have a resistance of about 660 Ohms and dissipate about 20 Watts (hence its large size).

    The GR controls the spindle motor’s armature voltage by controlling the voltage to the generator's shunt field. If either the F (forward) or R (reverse) relay is closed (i.e., the spindle is on), the exciter will put 115 VDC across the GR. The setting of the GR determines how much voltage appears at rheostat terminal GF2 and is provided to the generator's field. Below base speed, GR varies the generator’s field voltage causing the generator’s output voltage to increase (or decrease), thereby increasing (or decreasing) the voltage that is applied to the spindle motor's armature. At speeds above the spindle motor's base speed, the GR is in the section of windings that has zero resistance and it provides full voltage to the generator's field, which causes the generator to put out maximum voltage to the spindle motor's armature.

    The other Ohmite rheostat, the Motor Rheostat (MR) also varies its resistance for only half of its travel. When the speed control is in the field weakening (higher speed) range, the MR is in a section of its windings where its resistance varies. The MR is connected in series with the spindle motor's field. As you increase the speed control above base speed, the MR increases the series resistance, reducing the voltage to the spindle motor's field (weakening the field) and causing the motor's speed to increase. At maximum speed, the voltage across the spindle motor's field drops to about 40 VDC. During the entire time that the MR's resistance is increasing, the GR is in the zero resistance section. Similarly (in the base speed region), when the GR’s resistance is changing, the MR is in a zero resistance region, applying full field to the spindle motor.

    The MR is always connected in series with the exciter and the spindle motor’s field, even when the spindle is off. When the spindle is off, the DC control panel connects the braking resistors across the armature. If you then try to move the spindle, the spindle motor acts like a generator and can be very difficult to turn if in back gear, since rotating the spindle causes the motor to generate voltage that is fed to the braking resistors.

    I hope the above helps you understand what’s going on.

    As far as checking out the MG and spindle motor without the DC control panel, it’s actually relatively simple; you just need to make a few connections between the terminal panel on the MG, the Ohmite rheotats and the spindle motor. First, rig up a switch and fuse to connect the GR to MG and control the generator’s field; you need a 1 Amp fuse wired in series with the switch.

    Connect the GR to the MG, as follows:


    • GR terminal E2 to MG terminal E2
    • GR terminal GR1 to switch and 1 Amp fuse, then to MG terminal E1
    • GR terminal GF2 to MG terminal GF2



    Connect the MR to the MG and spindle motor’s field, as follows:


    • MR terminal E1-2 to MG terminal E1 via a 2 Amp fuse
    • MR terminal F2 to spindle motor terminal F2
    • Spindle motor terminal F1 to MG terminal E2



    Connect the MG to the spindle motor’s armature, as follows:


    • Spindle motor terminal A1 to MG terminal GS1 via a 15 Amp fuse
    • Spindle motor terminal A2 to MG terminal GA2



    The fuses are in case you hook something up wrong. Obviously, all this wiring is done with the machine powered off and disconnected from power.

    With the MG running and the speed control set to minimum (counter clockwise), close the switch. The spindle motor should run slowly. Adjusting the speed control clockwise should take the spindle motor from minimum speed to maximum, through both the base and field weakening regions of operation.

    Cal

    10EE smoking and arcing (practicalmachinist.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    I may have multiple issues going on.

    Machine started today
    Made a few cuts with the rear cover off.
    Machine was making an arcing sound.
    Snapped a quick vid ...

    ....you can see the arcing from the lower unit on the MG .

    https://youtu.be/bNR_ttih-M4
    The problem is definitely with the generator's brushes. It could be brush tension, but most likely the brushes are just worn out. You can order a full set of brushes form Monarch. At last report they were reasonably priced. At this point, I would replace all three sets of brushes. Seating new sets of brushes and cleaning up the commutators isn't as simple as just popping in new brushes. Depending on your situation, you might want to have an industrial electrician with DC motor experience do the job. It is something that you can do yourself if you're mechanically inclined; if you want to send me an e-mail, I can give you more information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Will motor brushes also cause no spindle engagement?

    Also is the lower the motor and upper the generator?

    ...
    The motor/generator (MG) consists of three units: 1) a 3-phase AC drive motor; 2) a DC generator; and 3) a DC exciter. The AC drive motor and DC generator have a common shaft and are housed in the lower tube, with the generator on the tailstock end. The belt-driven unit on top is the DC exciter. It's job is to provide field voltage for the DC spindle motor and the DC generator as well as power for the relays in the DC control panel. The unit that's arcing is the DC generator.

    Yes, bad brushes on the DC generator will cause loss of spindle power, as you described. The DC generator provides the spindle motor's armature current and when it's arcing like that it can't put out full power.

    Cal

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    [QUOTE=Jaymce;3813172]
    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Awesome. Thanks, I'll call today.

    Definitely lack of maintenance but honestly on the part of the last 75 years of ownership.

    I might run this machine in a year what a machine shop would do in a week.

    It should lead a fairly mundane and relaxing life from here on out.10ee losing spindle speed
    To be kept in mind:

    - All three sets of brushes and commutators are "presented" for access such that they may be serviced without removing the MG or the final-drive motor from the machine, hence no need of messing with ANY of the wiring.

    This WILL have been done, routinely, many times already during the 10EE's early and most active life.

    With brushes lasting but 2,000 to 6,000 Power-on hours and 52 weeks of five ten-hour days only 2600 hours? 10EE in "war work" run multiple shifts would have had more than one set of brushes in a single hard-driving year - may or may not have had the commutators dressed but would at least have had the brushes "seated".

    CAVEAT: That one CAN do it whilst the goods are still inside the lathe is not the same as "easy". Just "doable".

    - You do NOT want to try to dress EITHER of the MG "main" generator" nor the Exciter (also a DC generator) commutator whilst running under the power of the AC input drive motor!

    -- Use the pulleys to separately provide rotational force so all power to the 10EE itself is OFF instead. This does not require high speed.

    - It is "possible" but not a good idea to dress the final-drive motor's commutator under its own power.
    -- It can be run on either opposing pair of its four brushes and make turns off a seriesed-up pair of auto/RV/marine 12 V batteries @ 24 VDC.

    It is still a bad idea ... because the grit from the dressing stone would be getting under the remaining pair of brushes.

    Once again, use a vee belt and provide power from an external motor source. It doesn't need very much power.

    IF.. you have the time and inclination, you can pull the MG. The mounts to the base casting are a nuisance but not position-critical, it's the wiring that is a PITA.

    Once out, it can be torn-down for new BEARINGS (they are not expensive) as well as for lathe-turning the commutator.

    The wiring for the final drive motor is simpler. A1,,A2, F1,F2. You need a "wedgy" split "screwholding" straight screwdriver to put the screws back IN, otherwise just awkward to see them whilst belly down or bent-over in the head-whacker zone.

    The MOUNTING of the final-drive motor IS critical.

    The four feet each have shims set at the factory to precisely align the belts. Simply PRESERVE each stack (ziplock baggie marked with sharpie?) so they go back in with the same one of those four feet they were associated with.

    CAVEAT. The mounting plate the motor rests on will have dropped as the "rubber" pads between plate and frame perished. New ones recommended. The plate should return to factory "level" well-enough so long as all pads match.

    What' does a refurb buy you?

    Probably 20 years of peace. Three 24 hour shifts, 6 and 7 days a week are not likely to happen to a 10EE, ever again.

    But they HAD done. God bless 'em.

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    Call is in and awaiting quote. Not sure how long it usually takes for that info to come in. Hopefully I will hear Monday.

    Once again thanks to all who answered thus far. I appreciate the input.
    Jay

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    Any one measured and bought brushes from a place like McMaster Carr?

    Just assuming in this day and age Monarch has bigger fish to fry than my broke dick order for a few brushes.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    I don't know what happened, but give them another call. They'll take care of you.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Any one measured and bought brushes from a place like McMaster Carr?

    Just assuming in this day and age Monarch has bigger fish to fry than my broke dick order for a few brushes.
    Terri usually has the price for what you ask about while she's on the phone.

    I'm "guessing" that since mine arrived branded Helwig Carbon, but NOT with an SKU I could find "directly" that Helwig still publishes, that Monarch has Helwig make up a batch to their spec a few times a year, then stocks them in Sidney.

    So, yes, there could be a delay in actually GETTING them.

    Helwig does have competition. Even so, I have two other non-Helwig brushes out of my older 3 HP large-frame motors, but a search discovered both makers are known to have ceased operations some time ago.

    Brushes "in general" are not uncommon. The ones Monarch used are. More to it than size and shape. The lubricity, resistance, bonding,, leads, and included metals matter, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Terri usually has the price for what you ask about while she's on the phone.

    I'm "guessing" that since mine arrived branded Helwig Carbon, but NOT with an SKU I could find "directly" that Helwig still publishes, that Monarch has Helwig make up a batch to their spec a few times a year, then stocks them in Sidney.

    So, yes, there could be a delay in actually GETTING them.

    Helwig does have competition. Even so, I have two other non-Helwig brushes out of my older 3 HP large-frame motors, but a search discovered both makers are known to have ceased operations some time ago.

    Brushes "in general" are not uncommon. The ones Monarch used are. More to it than size and shape. The lubricity, resistance, bonding,, leads, and included metals matter, too.
    Been busy but I will give another call today to tomorrow.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    I agree with what others have posted that the problem is probably brushes. But I would spend a little time trying to get it running, and to evaluate the brushes before replacing the brushes. My suggestion is to locate each brush so you know how many there are and where they are, then one at a time, pull the spring off and to the side and pull the brush loose, blow it out with some compressed air, put the brush and spring back, make sure it is making good contact to the commutator. If you see how long the brush is relative to the brush holder you can tell if it still has some life remaining.

    A lot of the time if the machine has been sitting unused, just getting the brushes free and making sure the springs are doing their job will get it running fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I agree with what others have posted that the problem is probably brushes. But I would spend a little time trying to get it running, and to evaluate the brushes before replacing the brushes. My suggestion is to locate each brush so you know how many there are and where they are, then one at a time, pull the spring off and to the side and pull the brush loose, blow it out with some compressed air, put the brush and spring back, make sure it is making good contact to the commutator. If you see how long the brush is relative to the brush holder you can tell if it still has some life remaining.

    A lot of the time if the machine has been sitting unused, just getting the brushes free and making sure the springs are doing their job will get it running fine.
    I may do that. I finally got in touch with someone who got the info to me.
    Parts are ordered.

    As suggested this machine lead a somewhat neglected life for a while.
    When I got it all sight glasses showed empty. Also I cleaned and painted it as soon as I got it. It is definitely leaking from several areas but I am not going to chase them at this point.

    Anyway that history leads me to believe the brushes have not been serviced recently. Not too concerned, even with this purchase I am still sub $2k in total and it has saved me that much at least in being able to turn a bushing or grain some parts.

    Jay



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    Brushes showed up yesterday.
    Got the generator brushes (R-1019) installed.
    Comutator cleaned up and no more arcing. I will hopefully turn some parts shortly.
    Brushes were 50% +- worn.

    20210929_092016.jpg20210929_091255.jpg

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    commutator looks "ok" at BEST from what I can tell in the picture. Did you seat/bed the brushes with a comm stone?

    Good news the arcing is gone


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    Brushes showed up yesterday.
    Got the generator brushes (R-1019) installed.
    Comutator cleaned up and no more arcing. I will hopefully turn some parts shortly.
    Brushes were 50% +- worn.

    20210929_092016.jpg20210929_091255.jpg

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    commutator looks "ok" at BEST from what I can tell in the picture. Did you seat/bed the brushes with a comm stone?

    Good news the arcing is gone
    I dressed the commutator with a 320 stone but I probably could have done a better job had I used a drill or something. I just spun the generator by moving the belt. Only around 100 revolutions or so. Difficult access without moving the machine.

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    There are a number of threads out there dealing with Commutator servicing.

    Here is one of them

    Commutator care, motors, gen and exciter

    Generally to bed to brushes and tune up the comm you do that under power. The basic idea is to glue a comm stone to the end of a stick and reach in and touch the rotating comm. This must be done carefully and safety is a priority as there are deadly DC voltages involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymce View Post
    I dressed the commutator with a 320 stone but I probably could have done a better job had I used a drill or something. I just spun the generator by moving the belt. Only around 100 revolutions or so. Difficult access without moving the machine.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    There are a number of threads out there dealing with Commutator servicing.

    Here is one of them

    Commutator care, motors, gen and exciter
    Half-useful, that one.
    Have a care to sort the useful from the less-so.
    PM can do better than that.

    Generally to bed to brushes and tune up the comm you do that under power.
    Let's be clear:

    "Powered". Yes.

    Its OWN power? HELL NO!

    Just because an unaware hobbyist took foolish risks he did not NEED to take..managed to not electrocute himself ... does not make it a good idea to try this with the 10EE's OWN power!



    Besides.. if one has abrasive-coated paper or fabric under a brush to shape the brush to the curve of the commutator?

    How d'you expect that brush to transmit power to the commutator through the abrasive and backing, anyway? Silicon-Carbide grains are conductive. Useful semi-conductors, even. In a different venue, anyway. Alox, flint, Zirconia? Not so much. Nor is paper or fabric a good conductor. Dielectric, AKA "insulator", rather.

    Even when... operating the final-drive motor at a mere 24 V DC off two auto/truck/marine/RV 12 V storage batteries in series, interrupting the circuit produces a spike of over 100 Volts.

    At "normal" power, the Voltages, generator unloaded, can see in the neighbourhood of 300 Volts, with spikes of as much as 1500 Volts on interruption.

    Even if... there were no risk of serious shock, it is simply more difficult to do a decent job .... than it is when independently spinning-up each rotor, one at a time, power to the machine OFF.

    The exciter, the AC Motor & its common-shaft primary DC generator, and the final drive - each and every one -already have an "A" section Vee belt pulley attached. Or on some fewer final-drive motor & spindle combinations, a flat belt attached.

    It doesn't require a lot of power to dress a commutator.

    There is no need to "saw up" an oversize stone, either. Not when the right size is cheap. Same-again insuklated hanlded stones. Dirt cheap, Zoro and others. This is not a new need.

    As to supplying motation?

    A rubber sander disk, no abrasive paper, or a powered resilient roller can spin any one of those rotors "fast enough".

    If you cannot figure out a way to apply rotation without power to the machine itself?

    Hire it serviced by someone who can do.

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