10ee missing taper attachment leads to problems:
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  1. #1
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    Default 10ee missing taper attachment leads to problems:

    So my 68 10ee had originally had the taper attachment with it but during a move or something when I acquired it the taper attachment was not there. Therefore it has the expandable lead screw on the cross-slide which has in the past and now given me a few problems when it comes to threading or even turning from the backside. I believe that this is non-uniform pressure is causing the lead screw to vary in length which is giving erratic readings on the DRO and also unpredictable depth of cuts. Has anyone been in this situation and made a bracket or secured the lead screw together somehow to cure this problem. If I'm off base on what's causing this issue please chime in.

    Thanks,
    Nick

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    Hi Nick,

    Can you post photos of the back end of your cross-slide, so I can see what you've got left. I need to see what draw bar you have and how the cross-feed nut is attached.

    Cal

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    Absolutely, I'll get to it this evening when I get home. Thanks Cal

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    Hope these help Cal. Sorry that they are sideways.
    20200107_150908.jpg20200107_150831.jpg20200107_150553.jpg

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    Here's another one.
    20200107_152202.jpg

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    The four screws attach the thrust bearing (for screw) block to draw bar. If draw bar is not solidly clamped back here, thrust bearing can be all over the place - and of course the screw also

    Thumbnail shows clamp screw extreme back end of drawbar on this C type Monarch

    You also may or may not know the draw bar can be clamped to or not clamped to the cross slide itself

    T/A being used - draw bar clamps to the CS

    T/A not in use draw bar NOT clamped to CS

    Some of the manuals have a little tidbit of a sketch about using the T/A (sheet says Instruction... and Sheet No. 43 bottom RH corner)

    Involves one of the hex heads just behind the base of the compound rest - which can be seen in this thumbnail
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails monarch-draw-bar-clamp.jpg  

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    Thanks for the info John. So would I need to make a bracket to hold the flat bar, with the four socket head caps, stationary to the apron to solve my problem. I'm going into the barn now and pull on that bar to check for movement.

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    Ok, so there is about 10-15 thou of movement in the T/A bar (in/out). That bar does not move when the CS is dialed in or out.

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    Must be stuck or secured in some other way. That the CS can move means the hex head nearest base of compound rest is loose. Snug it up and see if the moving of CS moves the draw bar or not. If DB is in fact secured by something we don't know about yet, the CS will not be able to move with the hex nut snugged up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    Ok, so there is about 10-15 thou of movement in the T/A bar (in/out). That bar does not move when the CS is dialed in or out.
    Nick,
    I will post some pics that should help you out. These are pics I took as I was disassembling my Cross Slide and Taper Attachment to clean and inspect on my New To Me 1969 10EE.

    Before I post pics I am gong to suggest that the “THRUST BEARING PLATE” is somewhat stuck in its Grooves which allows the Cross Slide Acme screw to move the Cross Slide as it should. However for you to have realizable Cross Slide to Crank Dial reliability and consistency you will need to fabricate a bracket to secure the Thrust Bearing/Taper Plate. Hopefully the following pics will give you an idea of what you need to fabricate. It would simply be a Plate with holes that align to the Taper Attachment threaded mounting holes on the Carriage. The Plate would need to be Thick enough so that you could drill and tap (2) holes in its Top Edge so you could bolt a Plate Strap to it that would PINCH/Secure the Taper Plate and make it stationary.

    As Things are right now you should be able to remove the Cross Slide Socket head recessed bolt as well as the Slotted Screw/Pin and then manually slide the Cross Slide Completely off to the back side of the lathe.

    Taper Attachment Body and Thrust Bearing Mounting Plate/Taper Plate securing Clamp:
    4afdf1b9-6b00-4ed5-b54a-b3e999adf225.jpg

    Cross Slide Acme Screw Thrust Bearing Boss mounted to Taper Plate:
    51c1ae8f-6b30-4b1b-bf26-e01137a75677.jpg
    The End of the Acme Screw is held Stationary in this Boss with Thrust bearings in the pockets at each end, thus making the lead screw Stationary and when rotated the Screw advances or retracts the Cross Slide. The Next pic shows the Acme screw Acme Nut that is Bolted to the underside of your Cross Slide.
    1aa776f6-495a-4cc1-a191-150ab587ee3b.jpg 6f51c94b-9010-48f5-865d-6c0a18b93c3d.jpg​One of 2 Thrust Bearings.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ad74b53f-9da4-4c96-86df-af27eeb177b0.jpg  

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    Thanks for the input and help guys. Snugging up the bolt nearest the compound base freezes up the movement of the CS and the DB is stuck where it is at. With that bolt snugged up should I be trying to move the CS with the dial or sliding it by hand as though the T/A was pulling it? How far in to the apron should the thrust bearing boss be when it is fully retracted into the apron. Mine appears to be stick out of the apron at least half way. I noticed when cutting those threads yesterday that when it wasn't cutting even though I was adding 5 thou at a time to the compound I could see the insert tool flex back (about 10 thou) towards the cut when the pressure was relieved as it entered the groove I cut for relief if that makes sense.

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    By hand for sure won't bust anything

    It seems clear that it has been modified to be able to hold bar and thrust block at least somewhat still for use of machine without T/A

    The presence of the DRO scale related items back there would seem to eliminate the possibility of mounting T/A

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    I added the DRO several months ago. The DB moved when I got the machine and I'm pretty sure the DB is just pinched in that position with the thrust bearing block. I had the whole apron apart to fix oilers and such when I got it.

    Ok, so I went out and got the CS to move in/out by hand with the DB moving with it. When everything is pulled in towards the dial the thrust bearing block extends approximately .625 past the apron wall. Is this where I need to secure everything down at with a bracket?

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    Monarch's idea was to not have a fixed place - just a clamp bolt. You get to put the DB/thrust block where you want - within reason. Post #6 shows some DB hanging out a bit - you could make it hanging out a bit more or a bit less - I'd guess at least 2" of "flexibility" of position

    Maybe some EE owners will comment on WHERE their clamp bolt is in relation to rear face of carriage saddle. Such data would give you an idea of where the back end of DB should be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zap921 View Post
    I added the DRO several months ago. The DB moved when I got the machine and I'm pretty sure the DB is just pinched in that position with the thrust bearing block. I had the whole apron apart to fix oilers and such when I got it.

    Ok, so I went out and got the CS to move in/out by hand with the DB moving with it. When everything is pulled in towards the dial the thrust bearing block extends approximately .625 past the apron wall. Is this where I need to secure everything down at with a bracket?

  17. #15
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    Yes, the tongue of the taper attachment is all you have left, it will have to be pinned down for the cross slide to function properly.
    On later machines like this one, most of the time if a taper attachment is not ordered with a machine, they still used the telescopic lead screw, but they have a small bracket that replaces the tongue and bolts to the end of the casting to secure it. You could make an L bracket, to attach to the tongue and the bolt holes in the casting.
    I have a photo of the telescoping and non telescoping screws, the non telescoping is not supported on the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Monarch's idea was to not have a fixed place - just a clamp bolt. You get to put the DB/thrust block where you want - within reason. Post #6 shows some DB hanging out a bit - you could make it hanging out a bit more or a bit less - I'd guess at least 2" of "flexibility" of position

    Maybe some EE owners will comment on WHERE their clamp bolt is in relation to rear face of carriage saddle. Such data would give you an idea of where the back end of DB should be

    I agree, non Critical, but here is a pic of mine as I was taking it apart to clean everything:

    252837a2-97c4-4724-9730-191e608c3846.jpg

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  21. #17
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    The light bulb is starting to get brighter So it really doesn't matter if the telescoping part of the lead screw isn't bottomed out as long as the drawbar is held in place, within reasonable limits of the expanding section of the lead screw. For some reason I kept thinking that the telescoping section was part of the problem especially if you were turning on the backside of the part in reverse this made me believe it would expand the lead screw from the pressure which it could in my situation since the drawbar isn't secured. Correct?

    L bracket forth coming to heal my 10ee.

    Good pics Mac007, thanks very much. It's hard to get a grip with how it works when you don't have the T/A.

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    The clamp that normally holds the draw bar stationary when the taper attachment is not is use is shown in the top/rear of this photo:

    img_3468.jpg


    Here's what the "bridge" and clamp screw look like:
    img_3458.jpg


    The screw has flats on it so that a wrench can be used to drive it down to pinch the drawbar against the bracket under the bridge. The bridge mounts on a casting that bolts to the back of the taper attachment base casting. These parts are common to both round- and square-dial 10EEs. Parts sheet 113 in the square-dial manual shows the bridge (EE-2411), the clamp screw (EE-1550) and the bracket (EE-2410).

    If you make up something like those three parts, but bolted directly to the bed, you will replicate the stock clamp system. An L-shaped bracket (possibly a piece of angle iron) bolted to the bed and a C-clamp will work in a pinch.

    Cal

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    Thanks Cal for taking the time to post those and explain the workings. I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done, just have to formulate a plan of how and with what. Keep you guys posted on the results.

    Nick

    The pics really help!

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    Great thread, I will probably have to read it a few more times to make sure I understand it fully. I was planning on running my machine with the taper attachment removed while I restored it. The taper attachment uses four bolts, you could probably mount a piece of channel stock the photos on the rear of the saddle.


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