10EE Motor Generator starting problems
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  1. #1
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    Default 10EE Motor Generator starting problems

    I am about to fire up the 10EE that just landed in my shop...

    I got a 50:50 chance on which way the MG set turns. looking at the end of the lathe, which is the correct way, CW or CCW?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 10ee-end-view.jpg  
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 03-17-2021 at 02:35 PM.

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    Counter-clockwise. Verify this by looking at the brass tag on the body of the motor-generator. On square-dial machines, it's located to the right of the terminal panel and mostly hidden by the conduit leading to the exciter and the base itself.

    Cal

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    OK, got it spin CCW, of course trial 1 was backwards. Switched two wire on the 3 phase.

    No joy on trying to start - nothing. Just got MG set spinning.

    I am thinking of pushing in one of these contactors to see what happens. Good idea/ other suggestions.

    I am bad at electrical diagnosis on something I do not understand and have no prints.spindle-end-view.jpg

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    It looks as if your DC control panel has been modified at some point. The three resistors at the top are not in the normal location.

    The first thing to check is to read the DC voltage between terminals E1 and E2 at the bottom of the DC control panel. Check the metal tags on the wires to make sure that you're on the right terminals. It's easy to get on the wrong row. You should be seeing about 115 VDC between E1 and E2.

    Cal

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    make sure variable speed knob is not on zero which would be all the way CCW. put it in the middle somewhere. its the knob on the bottom left front of headstock

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    make sure variable speed knob is not on zero which would be all the way CCW. put it in the middle somewhere. its the knob on the bottom left front of headstock
    That shouldn't make any difference.

    Cal

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    Yep, the relay should pull in no matter where the knob is at.

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    I didn't realize that the contactor was not pulling in, so the variable speed knob position would not matter, but I assure you that I have had to make two house calls on a 10ee that I sold that 'was not working.' I get there, turn the knob, throw the drum switch lever and it starts right up. Two times, the same owner saying the lathe doesnt work, both times the variable speed knob was turned off.

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    So that machine won't start with the knob set to minimum? That doesn't seem right. Mine doesn't go all the way to zero; about 8 RPM is the bottom end of the speed range. Maybe his wiper hits a dead spot at the end of travel and isn't applying voltage to the generator's field?

    Cal

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    that's possible.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    So that machine won't start with the knob set to minimum? That doesn't seem right. Mine doesn't go all the way to zero; about 8 RPM is the bottom end of the speed range. Maybe his wiper hits a dead spot at the end of travel and isn't applying voltage to the generator's field?

    Cal

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    An M/G drive machine not starting with the speed control knob set to minimum is a new one on me. The next time that you're over there, see what's going on with the generator's field voltage, GF2 to E2.

    Cal

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    too late
    the machine went to a new owner in another state
    I loaded it last week

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    An M/G drive machine not starting with the speed control knob set to minimum is a new one on me. The next time that you're over there, see what's going on with the generator's field voltage, GF2 to E2.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It looks as if your DC control panel has been modified at some point. The three resistors at the top are not in the normal location.

    The first thing to check is to read the DC voltage between terminals E1 and E2 at the bottom of the DC control panel. Check the metal tags on the wires to make sure that you're on the right terminals. It's easy to get on the wrong row. You should be seeing about 115 VDC between E1 and E2.

    Cal
    OK got 3 rows of 4 terminals for a total of 12.

    If i read correctly first row starts A2 then A1

    Second row starts E2 then E1

    Third row starts C1 then C2

    I get 6 volts DC across E1 and E2.

    So, what do i look at next?

    PS is there a way to change the title of my thread to something like "new 10EE DC drive"? Then I can keep this one running till problems are solved.

    PPS, I scrapped the DC drive on my other 10EE and knob can go clear to "0" speed on the VFD. I have caught myself looking for a drive fault when the trouble is the knob on 0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    ...

    Third row starts C1 then C2

    I get 6 volts DC across E1 and E2.
    It sounds like your exciter has lost most of it's residual magnetism. That sometimes happens when the sit for a while. You may need to flash the exciter. See this thread:Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It sounds like your exciter has lost most of it's residual magnetism. That sometimes happens when the sit for a while. You may need to flash the exciter. See this thread:Cal
    Oh man, that discussion is over my head. plus i got the newer square dial machine that is different from what this thread describes - a three wire for round dial machines.

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    The information applies to both round- and square-dial motor/generator machines; there a no significant differences when it come to the exciter. If you're having trouble understanding it, it's definitely time to get some help. There are lots of ways to get hurt or killed when dealing with line voltage power.

    Cal

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    Yep, finding electrical help on a 10EE is impossible in my location. That is why I ripped the DC drive out on my other 10EE. On the old one, the DC drive looked BAD.

    On this one all the components look to be clean and in nice condition, especially the DC motor and backgear. Does this motor and drive have any significant value?

    Looks like I am back to plan A - install 10hp 8 pole 3 phase motor and VFD drive - no backgear.
    10EE drive VFD no backgear

    Found the motor for $1500
    10 hp electric motor 284t 3 phase 900 rpm severe duty PE284T-10-8C 192999004463 | eBay

    VFD will be about $500. there will be other bits and pieces that will likely be another $500.


    I spent several hours today looking for an all new DC drive - no joy. I can see this DC motor has been rebuilt. if a drop in single phase DC drive is made, I'd look at that route.

    Got plenty of time to think before acting here, this is not a rush job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Yep, finding electrical help on a 10EE is impossible in my location. That is why I ripped the DC drive out on my other 10EE. On the old one, the DC drive looked BAD.

    On this one all the components look to be clean and in nice condition, especially the DC motor and backgear. Does this motor and drive have any significant value?

    Looks like I am back to plan A - install 10hp 8 pole 3 phase motor and VFD drive - no backgear.
    10EE drive VFD no backgear

    Found the motor for $1500
    10 hp electric motor 284t 3 phase 900 rpm severe duty PE284T-10-8C 192999004463 | eBay

    VFD will be about $500. there will be other bits and pieces that will likely be another $500.


    I spent several hours today looking for an all new DC drive - no joy. I can see this DC motor has been rebuilt. if a drop in single phase DC drive is made, I'd look at that route.

    Got plenty of time to think before acting here, this is not a rush job.
    You have all the help you need here. Listen to Cal he is the maestro of MG's and all things EE. There are many others here that will help as well. Do heed the safety comments about poking around in these DC panels (never while the MG is running is a good start).

    I'm sure you will find arguments on both sides of the aisle, but scraping the original drive, in my book (and MANY others), is a horrible idea.

    Be patient, study, learn, and fix what you have and you will be much happier. Those original drives are amazing. As you even noted, the motor (not sure which one as there is 1 AC motor, 1 DC motor, and 2 DC generators in that system) was rebuilt, and the MG picture on the "exterior" looks to show a fresh setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    Yep, finding electrical help on a 10EE is impossible in my location. That is why I ripped the DC drive out on my other 10EE. On the old one, the DC drive looked BAD.

    On this one all the components look to be clean and in nice condition, especially the DC motor and backgear. Does this motor and drive have any significant value?

    Looks like I am back to plan A - install 10hp 8 pole 3 phase motor and VFD drive - no backgear.
    10EE drive VFD no backgear

    Found the motor for $1500
    10 hp electric motor 284t 3 phase 900 rpm severe duty PE284T-10-8C 192999004463 | eBay

    VFD will be about $500. there will be other bits and pieces that will likely be another $500.


    I spent several hours today looking for an all new DC drive - no joy. I can see this DC motor has been rebuilt. if a drop in single phase DC drive is made, I'd look at that route.

    Got plenty of time to think before acting here, this is not a rush job.
    I have had problems getting my round dial10EE to start also. Here are somethings why mine did not start and what fixed it. A couple times I have had to replace the big fuse above the contact under the spindle. Another time the graphite brushes were toast on the motor under the tailstock. Measured the brushes and orderd some from McMaster Carr. Another time the start switch was not making contact. Cleaned and tighten the connections and has been fine. Good luck.
    Jeff

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    OK, this whole thing is likely to just go south, but I will try a bit more.

    So, what the heck is an exciter - never heard of it. I know some have three wires, some have two wires. is it tiny like a resistor?? maybe inside another panel?? Now I am somehow supposed to find these wires and disconnect them. Got no wire numbers, no prints.

    Everybody is ignorant on some subjects and expert on others. The instructions Cal wrote up assumes the individual has a basic understanding of how a 10EE drive works. I have NO CLUE.

    Now I wrote the machine language code behind two line G76 for lathes. No way would i expect someone here to know how to diagnose a problem with this.

    Anyway, i would appreciate help, but telling somebody how to fix a problem at a distance when the guy is ignorant is difficult at best.


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