10EE Non startup-solid state drive issue
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  1. #1
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    Default 10EE Non startup-solid state drive issue

    I will start this off by saying I know absolutely nothing about electrical, I have no idea what I'm doing which is why I'm here looking for help!

    I have recently purchased a 1946 Monarch 10EE lathe. The machine was completely rebuilt back in 92' and fitted with a solid state drive conversion as well as a new DC motor at the time. I picked up the lathe non-functioning, it was working up until late 2020 right before being listed for sale and was intermittently functioning while being listed for sale. Before it was posted for sale it's last daily use was back in 2012 when the plant shut down but was fully functional up until then. It has sat in an unheated facility, which could have something to do with its issues. It would act like it wants to turn on at the plant by making a light humming noise when turning the switch but wouldn't actually turn the spindle.

    Any help at all is greatly appreciated, I can get more information tonight after work on the drives and start some diagnosis. I won't have it powered up for a little while as I just hauled it home yesterday and need to purchase a VFD to run it. thanks!


    img_20210224_102011.jpgimg_20210224_114446.jpgimg_20210224_155909.jpg

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    I can't offer any help but I'm sure you'll need to post pictures of the new drive system and voltage required.

    Hal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrain2015 View Post
    I will start this off by saying I know absolutely nothing about electrical, I have no idea what I'm doing which is why I'm here looking for help!

    I have recently purchased a 1946 Monarch 10EE lathe. The machine was completely rebuilt back in 92' and fitted with a solid state drive conversion as well as a new DC motor at the time. I picked up the lathe non-functioning, it was working up until late 2020 right before being listed for sale and was intermittently functioning while being listed for sale. Before it was posted for sale it's last daily use was back in 2012 when the plant shut down but was fully functional up until then. It has sat in an unheated facility, which could have something to do with its issues. It would act like it wants to turn on at the plant by making a light humming noise when turning the switch but wouldn't actually turn the spindle.

    Any help at all is greatly appreciated, I can get more information tonight after work on the drives and start some diagnosis. I won't have it powered up for a little while as I just hauled it home yesterday and need to purchase a VFD to run it. thanks!


    img_20210224_102011.jpgimg_20210224_114446.jpgimg_20210224_155909.jpg
    I would not buy a VFD until you verify what the machine needs for power, it could run on single phase?
    Please take pictures of the components, it would be a lot easier to diagnose then!

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    I can't offer any help but I'm sure you'll need to post pictures of the new drive system and voltage required.

    Hal
    I plan to do that later today, after speaking with a co-worker I have a good lead on where to look for the issue.
    He is thinking it's in the on off switch contactors since it was an intermittent issue. I need to pick up an RPC soon so I can test that

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    I will get some pictures tonight, I'm in between on what to do. I have read some info about the solid state drives not running on anything but true three phase power also. I will also take pictures of the manual that was sent from the rebuild company.

    I know that the machine was hooked up to three phase at the shop, but it would be great if its single phase as well.

    Thanks

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    Most of the VFDs made in the past 10 years will run on single phase power, some with a minor derating. Get a name and model and someone should be able to help.

    I would bet that the fwd/rev contactors are out of the picture. A lot of VFDs don't like to be switched while powering something and take it poorly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrain2015 View Post
    I will get some pictures tonight, I'm in between on what to do. I have read some info about the solid state drives not running on anything but true three phase power also. I will also take pictures of the manual that was sent from the rebuild company.

    I know that the machine was hooked up to three phase at the shop, but it would be great if its single phase as well.

    Thanks
    That was on the Monarch solid state drive, unless your machine was rebuilt by Monarch, you could use a rotary phase converter if needed?

    Kevin

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    Mine was not rebuilt by monarch, It was rebuilt by a company in Virginia that is now out of business. I think I may have found the issue I have a coworker who used to rebuild these years ago. He said it was common for the own off switch to get corroded and stop making contact. I have disassembled the switch from the headstock and noticed a lot of corrosion and grime. I'll add some photos of the switch and the drive cabinet on my computer at work tomorrow, can't get this mobile thing to work...

    That would be great if I could run an RPC on this.

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    img_20210225_163557.jpgimg_20210225_163607.jpgimg_20210225_163621.jpgimg_20210225_163630.jpgimg_20210225_163650.jpg

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    i've added some photos of the inside of the electrical cabinet, as well as photos of the drives.

    also are some pictures of the on-off switch, which is believed to be the culprit based on the extent of the corrosion and layer of grime on the contactors.

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    Okay...

    So, you most certainly have a retrofit drive of some type on there... it's not 'original'.

    It appears to be a late '80's to mid '90's era design and manufacture, and it looks like it was a 'factory built' cabinet, intended for install on any number of machines.

    The ID tag is obscured, so we can't get any good info off of it, aside from the possibility that SOMEONE here recognizes the style or logo.

    We cannot tell what power input character (voltage, phase(s), current, etc)
    We cannot tell what type of spindle motor has been installed, or if it is original.

    It COULD be that the spindle motor is original, and if so, I think there's been three, mebbie four different DC motors used...

    If it was retrofitted by Monarch at any time, it MAY have been fitted with a 3 phase AC spindle motor, and this MAY be an AC 3phase (VFD) drive.

    It MAY be that the spindle motor is DC, and this could be a variable DC drive system.

    It may be that this drive requires 3 phase, it MAY function fine on single, and it may actually just be a single-phase supply.

    So far, though, none of the pictures give us anything that we can chase... aside from the fact that it looks to be very clean and nicely-kept. Please post photos of ID tags and labels, especially find the ID plate on the motor.

    This switch you've shown isn't the 'on off'... it is the DIRECTION switch... and it's an interesting guy in it's own right. MIND That crosspin... it is tapered, and only fits ONE WAY. If you put it in backwards, it'll stay... at least, long enough for you to put that switch back in, line it up to the lever, and flip it backand forth a couple times... then the pin WILL fall out, and down into the depths of the casting below... and you'll need a magnet-onna-stick and a whole lotta patience to fish it out. (don't ask how I know!)

    In order to properly troubleshoot, some basic understanding of what you have, and how it's all hooked up, and how it was INTENDED to work, is necessary. The data above will help us sort that out. Also, if you see any diagrams, or find any little pouches with drawings, or possibly a 3-ring binder that came with it, all very, very helpful.

    Power comes in through a disconnect switch, usually with fuses. Are there two, or three? If two, it runs on single phase!
    From that disconnect, it PROBABLY goes to a power contactor. I THINK one of your photos MIGHT BE the main power contactor (labelled ASEA)... and it MAY be a Motor Overload Type (with a RESET button)

    From there, it'll go to the motor drive.

    motor drive will have inputs that connect to the speed-direction switch, another will go to the speed control potentiometers (which are located behind the speed control knob under the headstock, with the backgear selector lever. They MAY have included an E-stop button somewhere, too.

    BTW... if you're 'new' to the Monarch 10EE, you might wonder where all these controls are... don't be afraid to ask....

    The ORIGINAL Monarch 10EE power control is located below the apron, by your left knee. Red button = start, black = stop.

    In order to START the 10-EE, in original config, the DIRECTION lever must be in centered (stop) position... This is so that if someone starts the machine, and the handle is in a RUN direction, it would flail away dangerously, especially if someone didn't have the chuck locked in, or they put the chuck KEY in the chuck loosely, or a part wasn't totally locked onto a faceplate...

    When drive conversions are done, SOMETIMES they're the same way, sometimes not. I converted mine in such a way that the direction switch was connected only to the drive, but the DRIVE's programming requires that the Drive will NOT start the motor until it sees the control go from a STOP position, to a RUN position. That means, if I leave it in RUN, start the drive, I hafta switch it to STOP, then RUN to get it to go.

    The basic troubleshooting starts with identifying and verifying power requirements, then tracing power, to see, when powered up, wether all parts are getting powered up. After that, it's just satisfying control sequences, and if it doesn't succeed, check each step along the way to find out why it isn't getting all the way through.

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    Sorry for the late reply, but i had finally gotten power to it this past weekend.


    When turning the lathe to the forward position I get nothing, when turning to reverse I get a loud clicking/clunking from the drive contactors. When switched to the forward position, I'm not getting any voltage to the contactor that is not firing off. I've ordered another drive contactor off eBay as these are discontinued. The contactor is only engaging and disengaging when the drum switch is rotated. i have also fully disassembled the drum switch and cleaned the contacts and reassembled to no avail. Included is a picture of the troubleshooting section in the manual and some pictures of the motor and drum switch wiring. i need to take some more photos of the manual and upload them as well.

    img_20210319_191119.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20210227_090704.jpg   img_20210227_090618.jpg   img_20210315_172047.jpg  

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    Definitely a DC motor. You're going to need some sort of schematic/block diagram of the electronics. Finding a manufacture, model and serial number and working with google may be best bet. Look around the sides of the large circuit board shown in the first picture. An inspection mirror may be useful.

    I'm not sure how much info your manual has (the dappled light makes it pretty hard to read in the picture). Do you own a voltmeter? Know anything about electronics? The voltages involved in these machines are potentially lethal. Sorry if that sounds like a safety lecture, just trying to provide a quick reality check.

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    Sorry about the poor lighting, that was projecting through the old worn out collet rack haha.
    Yes I do own a voltmeter and while I'm not great with electronics I am interested in learning, I meant to take better photos of the manual yesterday but forgot.
    I do have some help with the wiring/diagnostics/safety from a relative who is more versed with these things. I also have the entire wiring schematic with the manual.

    I will also get pictures of the model and serial numbers and post them up, I know that the cabinet was made by Cleveland Machine Control.

    thanks for the help!

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    Since you don’t know a lot about either electronics or 10EE’s, I would suggest that you take a more systematic approach, instead of randomly guessing.

    First, read about field weakening and learn how a 10EE DC motor’s speed is controlled. Even though you have an aftermarket control, it would be the same. There are lots of posts on the subject, search is your friend.

    Then, armed with that knowledge and a voltmeter, find out what your armature and field voltages are and look for the problem, possibly with some help from people on the forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrain2015 View Post
    I also have the entire wiring schematic with the manual.
    You /we will need that most of all.
    I will also get pictures of the model and serial numbers and post them up,
    You had them. But that crucial nameplate was behind the wires!!!



    The final-drive motor is a late-production (nominal) 3 HP "large-frame" Reliance Type T. As shipped in the "MG" era 10EE. It has been re-varnished if not also re-wound. Earlier such motors has a brass-ish dataplate positioned more centrally on the motor shell.

    The DC Drive "appears to be" a European-spec (because of the up to 500 V rating) ASEA.

    ASEA-Brown-Boveri, or - in more recent times, just "ABB". Not that it mattered but they own present-day Reliance.

    The high count of relays, braking resistors, surplus wire and terminals and the retention of the OEM motor switch, and similar crustaceous / fossilized obsolescence hints that it is very possibly only a "First-Quadrant" AKA "contactor reversing" DC Drive.

    "4Q" drives do not need, and do not want contactors nor braking resistors. They reverse by deciding which SCR's wiil trigger, utilize the "local grid" as a braking resistor, and have simpler controls, hence fewer wires as well.

    WHEN.. single-phase-only input? They also need 290 VAC or better - preferably 320 VAC or so - when run off single-phase-only input power. That is to be able to power the nominal 230 VDC motor. Which is actually provided with as much as 300 VDC on-tap. Typically 245 to 265 VDC are there to be measured. The rest rolls-in as load regulation requires.

    Look for a step-up transformer of around 4 KVA to 6 KVA that is providing that boost. Big one. A tad larger than half a load of bread, and heavy.

    ELSE.. confirm that the DC drive is THREE-PHASE INPUT.. .which needs no such step-up.

    Do not be surprised it is a 4XX VAC, not 2XX VAC, input unit.. "either way"..

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    You are absolutely correct, I know nothing about either haha. I will look into the field weakening and figure out how it works, so I can also know how to fix it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrain2015 View Post
    You are absolutely correct, I know nothing about either haha. I will look into the field weakening and figure out how it works, so I can also know how to fix it!
    Believe it or not a simple Go Ogle on even a very Old DC Drive make and model number often turns up brochure, data sheet, installation/commissioning Operating short manual and full-detail long manual a design Engineer needs for integration or any competent service tech needs to do repairs or judge them no longer worth it vs a fresh upgrade to currently supported goods.

    If you can't use those "directly"?

    Other who can do can use them to guide you.

    Could was we DO read minds at a distance, but not the way you need to get a 10EE running.

    Help us help you.

    It's faster for all hands and cheaper for your hands.

    Until there is better information from the only person in possession OF it?

    You are in a similar position as a guy goes to the hospital and won't talk to the staff, take and exam, or share his medical history with one of the Doctors...just hangs around the carpark, asking folks coming and going if they have ever had a pain in the ass?

    Eventually somebody says:

    "Not until NOW, I had not!"

    You'd have to know about that "mind-reading" thing?
    Last edited by thermite; 03-23-2021 at 09:48 PM.

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    img_20210323_174101.jpgimg_20210323_174107.jpgimg_20210323_194323.jpgimg_20210323_194334.jpgimg_20210323_194342.jpg

    Thank you all for bearing with me here. I am definitely feeling like a guy wandering around at the hospital with stomach and head pains but won't tell anyone hahaha. I'm more use to using Facebook for this kinda stuff but I know you guys have much better expertise, still learning how to actually use the forum.

    I've attached some photos of the manual and the model number. Luckily I do have very good documentation on this controller.


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