10EE round dial gearbox disassembly help needed
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  1. #1
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    Default 10EE round dial gearbox disassembly help needed

    I'm working on the gearbox for a 1943 round-dial 10EE because of massive oil leaks. It is out and on my bench. I started disassembly and got stuck! I don't see a way into the internals. Does the brass dial on the front have to come off to access the inside?

    I've removed the cover over the shifter mechanism. It appears that the shaft driving the rack has to come out in order to access everything under it. The shaft is threaded into another larger shaft and held there with a setscrew. The setscrew is out and I can unscrew the shaft but it stops about halfway. I don't want to force anything. Maybe I need to make a special pin-wrench to hold the larger shaft while I turn the other shaft?

    img_6487.jpg

    threaded-shafts.jpg

    In this photo, I'm not sure if this is an oil seal or part of a bearing. In either case, there is no seal in the groove! That could be part of the oil leak problem.

    img_6488.jpg

    Any hints would be welcome. I thought by now I'd have this 10EE running, but I'm down another rat hole.

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    I just went through this on my 1942 round dial, and it is a complicated puzzle to say the least.
    First of all, you need to take off the brass plate on the front so you can see what’s going on inside.
    That shaft you are trying to remove does not thread into another shaft, it just has a taper pin that needs removed and then should slide out the back as far as I remember.
    Where is the oil leaking from? There is no seal where you are indicating on the leadscrew output. The smaller casting piece that bolts to the right side of the gearbox has a seal in it that should stop oil from coming out there. And it is of course a non-standard size seal incase you were wondering.
    I took a lot of pictures when I disassembled mine and will be glad to share them if you need anymore.
    One piece of advice I have for you, is to be very careful with the two leadscrew bearings. They are flanged angular contacts, and are very hard/impossible to find. There is one more flanged angular contact bearing inside that isn’t hard to find, but is very expensive...




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    This is the shaft seal on the casting piece I was referring to. I doubt it would leak there very much though because it’s so high above the oil level





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    RE bearings, remember LocateBB on ebay has essentially every New Departure bearing. Also, it looks like there is a chunk of steel missing as shown in the picture. As you disassemble try to find it in the innards.

    img_6487.jpg

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    The shaft that I can't remove appears to be #102 in the manual, the "Tumbler Lock Shaft".

    capture.jpg

    Here are two photos. The first shows the shaft threading into a collar. The threaded part is clearly visible. The second has the shaft pulled to the right so you can see the collar, which has a set screw and also holes drilled in it where you would put a pin-wrench (or whatever those are called.) I made a tool to hold it while I attempted to unscrew the shaft but no luck, it won't turn past a certain point.

    img_6493.jpg

    img_6492.jpg

    Regarding removing the brass face plate: I've tried everyway I know to pull it off. I can rotate is a couple of degrees with a drift and a small hammer, so it is "loose" but I can't move it forward. Cal posted some pics in another thread that showed using dental picks, which I tried, but no luck there either. I might have to resort to drilling a taping two small holes, perhaps under the place where the knobs are, so I have something to pull on. Can the center shaft and surrounding collar be removed without first removing the face plate? That might give me an opening where I can lever it off.

    img_6494-copy.jpg

    Probably a dumb question, but is the round section that the faceplate fits into a separate piece, or is it just a nicely machined part of the gearbox casting?

    Thanks for the help so far.

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    Did you look at these pictures, post 13?

    Step by Step Round Dial Gearbox Removal Help

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    Quote Originally Posted by focusrsh View Post
    ...

    Regarding removing the brass face plate: I've tried everyway I know to pull it off. I can rotate is a couple of degrees with a drift and a small hammer, so it is "loose" but I can't move it forward. Cal posted some pics in another thread that showed using dental picks, which I tried, but no luck there either. I might have to resort to drilling a taping two small holes, perhaps under the place where the knobs are, so I have something to pull on. Can the center shaft and surrounding collar be removed without first removing the face plate? That might give me an opening where I can lever it off.

    img_6494-copy.jpg

    Probably a dumb question, but is the round section that the faceplate fits into a separate piece, or is it just a nicely machined part of the gearbox casting?

    Thanks for the help so far.
    The plate is pretty thin. The bottom of the countersink is about where the plate ends. You need to make sure you get your picks in between the plate and the cast piece behind it. It's easy to get into the tapped hole immediately behind the dial. Mine has a dowel pin at about 1 O'clock to the Feed/Thread knob that you don't appear to have. The dowel pin made it difficult to move the dial on the right side. (It's function is to index the Feed/Thread knob by dropping into holes in the back of the knob.)

    The "center shaft and collar" can't be removed without taking the dial plate off first. The "collar" is part of large gear that's right behind the plate. The "round section that the faceplate fits into" is a separate casting that bolts to the gearbox casting itself. It doesn't appear on the parts picture. Note also that the parts picture in the 1942 manual is for the older style quick-change gearbox with the T-handle; you have the newer gearbox with the lever. Details of the front part of the gearbox are different. (If there's a more recent parts picture, showing the lever gearbox, I haven't seen it.)

    Here's what's behind the dial plate:
    img_6316.jpg

    Make sure you put witness marks on the gears, etc., before you remove them.

    Cal

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    Thanks for the photo.
    I have removed the dowel pin but the brass faceplate isn't budging. I'll try again.
    I recall looking at the thread mentioned above, "Step by Step Round Dial Gearbox Removal Help", but somehow missed those five photos of the gearbox with the front off. Duh. Good to know what is there.

    All of this to remedy a leak....

    - Carl

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    Where is the leak coming from?


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    Quote Originally Posted by focusrsh View Post
    Thanks for the photo.
    I have removed the dowel pin but the brass faceplate isn't budging. I'll try again.
    I recall looking at the thread mentioned above, "Step by Step Round Dial Gearbox Removal Help", but somehow missed those five photos of the gearbox with the front off. Duh. Good to know what is there.

    All of this to remedy a leak....


    - Carl
    Following your trek with interest but .. if I get the same problem?

    I suspect I'll just be using salvaged DTE.... instead of chain-bar oil for my chainsaw.

    Judge Roy-Bean "Justice" sech of a "turnabout", ain't that?

    Given all the wankers want to run fine machinery off chain-bar oil just because they "can"?


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    Carl,

    I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but you can use the large gear behind the dial to help pull it off. Make up a puller that fastens to the four tapped holes in the gear collar and presses against the center shalt. I would go very easy, put a little tension on the puller, then work around the outside of the outer ring, tapping and see if it will let go. If you haven't already done so, go around the outside of the dial and make sure there's no old paint or dried gunk that will stick things up. Use a good penetrating oil around the perimeter; 50% automatic transmission fluid, 50% acetone works as well as anything (WD-40 is NOT a good penetrating oil).

    Cal

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    I once spent about 40 hours over the course of two weeks tracing why my Toyota was dripping oil on the garage floor....

    I don’t like cars that drip.


    I am too embarrassed to tell what I finally discovered that fixed the leak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bll230 View Post
    I once spent about 40 hours over the course of two weeks tracing why my Toyota was dripping oil on the garage floor....

    I don’t like cars that drip.


    I am too embarrassed to tell what I finally discovered that fixed the leak.
    Fess up. PM will hunt yah down and torment yah right back, yah leave us hanging over a Japanese mystery.

    So long as it didn't require an antibiotic course of Taravid nor Klacid to see-off, what's to be embarrassed about a "drip"?

    Not as if it were a Nissan model named "Fair Lady", is it?

    Now there was a Japanese mystery. WHY the handbrake lever was placed between the driver and his door so once applied yah had to sorta levitate OVER it or literally bust balls. Come to think of it... busted balls.. and ...Fair Ladies...

    Crever peopr, the Japanese...


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    OK, back to the gearbox from the Toyota discussion....

    By wiggling the faceplate back and forth, I was finally able to get a dental pick under both sides and pop it off. There was lots of horrid goo underneath that has basically glued it to the gearbox case. With that off, I was able to disassemble the gearbox.

    Here are photos of the mysterious shaft discussed above. Definitely doesn't look like what I see in the manual, but then again, the manual has fooled me before. Looks a little home-made. I'm certain someone has been in the gearbox before me.

    img_6507.jpg img_6506.jpg

    As much as this has been yet another rat-hole pursuit, I'm glad I pulled the gearbox and opened it. Lots of gunk and bits of metal in there needing to be cleaned out. This is the only section of the lathe I haven't disassembled, so maybe I'm close to actually running it.

    The leak was here:
    img_6464.jpg

    I'm surprised by that leak, since the gearbox has a sealed bearing there. Nonetheless, it wasn't just a drip. It leaked out probably a quart of oil in an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by focusrsh View Post
    ...

    Here are photos of the mysterious shaft discussed above. Definitely doesn't look like what I see in the manual, but then again, the manual has fooled me before. Looks a little home-made. I'm certain someone has been in the gearbox before me.

    img_6507.jpg img_6506.jpg

    ...
    The "gearbox tumbler lock shaft", shown on parts picture E4-102, changed when the quick-change gearbox was redesigned to switch from the T-handle to the lever clutch. I think what you have is probably an original Monarch part or a field modification of one.

    If you download US Patent 2377305, the patent for the QC gearbox, there are some diagrams that may be helpful in figuring out what's going on (at least as far as the original design goes). I'll e-mail you what I have on the gearbox.

    Cal


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