10ee square dial lubricant leaking from headstock center chamber coming out spindle
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  1. #1
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    Default 10ee square dial lubricant leaking from headstock center chamber coming out spindle

    I have oil coming out the bottom of my spindle when the spindle is running. oil is coming from the center headstock chamber.
    Model 10ee MG square dial 1947
    oil is flowing out pretty quickly. will empty the chamber in an hour or two of run time


    Anyone have a remedy for this problem?

    Thanks
    Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    I have oil coming out the bottom of my spindle when the spindle is running. oil is coming from the center headstock chamber.
    Model 10ee MG square dial 1947
    oil is flowing out pretty quickly. will empty the chamber in an hour or two of run time


    Anyone have a remedy for this problem?

    Thanks
    Rich
    That is excessive. Greatly so.

    You will "probably" have to plan to pull the spindle.

    First, look back many years at threads by "RC99". His HS rebuild pursued how stuff works w/r lube management rather well and added to "the knowledge".

    Treatise on 10EE Bearings.

    OzEE rebuild

    There are several other threads.

    Cal Haines has published the proper drawings - more than a few times - along with all that discussion.

    Oil isn't so much "sealed" as "managed", but it works for far, FAR lesser loss than you are reporting.

    Research and plan first. Lift a wrench, later.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    First, look back many years at threads by "RC99". His HS rebuild pursued how stuff works w/r lube management rather well and added to "the knowledge".

    Treatise on 10EE Bearings.

    OzEE rebuild

    There are several other threads.

    Cal Haines has published the proper drawings - more than a few times - along with all that discussion.

    Oil isn't so much "sealed" as "managed", but it works for far, FAR lesser loss than you are reporting.

    Research and plan first. Lift a wrench, later.

    Oh boy more rabbit holes for me to go down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBJK View Post
    Oh boy more rabbit holes for me to go down.
    LOL!

    Not really.

    It was all LESS of a mystery AFTER RC published than it had been before.

    Some of what Monarch did is simply counter-intuitive to we "moderns" accustomed to 2, through 10 speed automatic motor vehicle transmissions, transfer cases, hydraulic drives, motors, differentials ... and such with a dozen of so different TYPES of seals.

    OTOH, MOST 10EE can go full 80 years and not NEED a seal replaced badly enough to slow down their work in the least.

    So the "Wizards of Sidney" were not "wrong".

    Just had different priorities. And they were simple, not complex.

    Which worked a treat.. for what a 10EE was expected to actually DO.

    It was NOT a Dynaflow, Ultramatic, Torqueflite, nor ZF.


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    I do not know the 10EE but on other lathes you have a drainhole that drains the oil that is pumped into the bearing back to the oil reservoir The oil is stop
    That hole can be plugged Or there is a groove in the bearing shield that connects with the drainhole If you position that cover in the wrong position the oil cannot drain There is a labyrint seal in the bearing shield often

    Peter

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    Check that your lathe is indeed level, and not pointing down somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    I have oil coming out the bottom of my spindle when the spindle is running. oil is coming from the center headstock chamber.
    Model 10ee MG square dial 1947
    oil is flowing out pretty quickly. will empty the chamber in an hour or two of run time
    ...
    I don't recall anyone mentioning this before.

    It sounds like you have the headstock with three oil sight glasses. If so, it's a mystery how any amount of oil can move from the center reservoir into the front bearing reservoir.

    Is the oil coming out around the spindle itself or through the tiny drain hole on the bottom (6 O'clock position) on the front bearing retainer. (That hole often gets painted shut.) Could the oil be coming out of the overflow hole in the bottom of the headstock casting, just above the bed?

    rimcanyon has his 1949 machine's headstock torn down right now. He may have some insights into what's going on here.

    Cal

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    What year is your lathe? It makes a difference.

    The drain hole in the front cover only gets used if the oil level is too high in the front bearing compartment. The front bearing compartment has a drain back to the sump, so maybe that drain is plugged. It requires removing the spindle to fix, so explore other alternatives first.

    The main oil reservoir has an overflow at the left rear corner.

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    I will take a closer look at whatever is happening and report back. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    I will take a closer look at whatever is happening and report back. Thanks
    "While you are at it..." also helps if we know where the "missing" oil is next making its appearance. That high a rate of loss, there HAS to be a major mess in evidence.

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    Default 1947 three sight glasses

    1947 with three sight glasses

    the oil is flowing out from the the overflow hole at 6 o'clock under the spindle AND from around the spindle.

    The oil is coming from the middle reservoir

    This is happening while the front bearing reservoir is not full according to the sight glass
    so the fluid is not splashing from the middle to the front reservoir then out the spindle.
    It is going from the middle directly out the spindle and overflow hole

    I have the machine on 4x4's and the tailstock end was high by about 1/2"
    I put some shims under the headstock end and it might have made the problem worse or possibly had no effect. hard to tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    1947 with three sight glasses

    the oil is flowing out from the the overflow hole at 6 o'clock under the spindle AND from around the spindle.

    The oil is coming from the middle reservoir

    This is happening while the front bearing reservoir is not full according to the sight glass
    so the fluid is not splashing from the middle to the front reservoir then out the spindle.
    It is going from the middle directly out the spindle and overflow hole

    I have the machine on 4x4's and the tailstock end was high by about 1/2"
    I put some shims under the headstock end and it might have made the problem worse or possibly had no effect. hard to tell.
    A) You are adding into the center reservoir? Or adding into the spindle-end reservoirs?

    B) How CLEAN are your critical sight glasses (spindle bearing ones, most of all)? OVERfill can do bad things up at the spindle, too.

    Perhaps create a "pump"?

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    Sight glasses are very clean. All are removed cleaned and reinstalled without the cork or metal plate with the fill line. I just use a rubber o ring to make the seal.
    I am adding oil to the center reservoir. The oil is coming out the spindle and the overflow hole under the spindle when spindle is turning. The oil level in the front bearing reservoir does not change

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    Sight glasses are very clean. All are removed cleaned and reinstalled without the cork or metal plate with the fill line. I just use a rubber o ring to make the seal.
    I am adding oil to the center reservoir. The oil is coming out the spindle and the overflow hole under the spindle when spindle is turning. The oil level in the front bearing reservoir does not change
    That serves the most expensive part to replace on the entire lathe, so "good news, at least 'in part'!"

    Round dials have differences, I have no other, so not much help.

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    pbungum had the spindle out of his 54' square-dial and we worked through the details of the oil overflow passage in the headstock and the front bearing retainer. Start at post #64 and see also post #93. That still doesn't explain what's going on here, but I think we can rule out the overflow passage as being involved.

    Maybe the rear slinger for the front bearings is damaged or missing?

    Have you always had this problem? Does the leak happen at low speeds?

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    Sight glasses are very clean. All are removed cleaned and reinstalled without the cork or metal plate with the fill line. I just use a rubber o ring to make the seal.
    I am adding oil to the center reservoir. The oil is coming out the spindle and the overflow hole under the spindle when spindle is turning. The oil level in the front bearing reservoir does not change
    Try removing the overflow line for the center reservoir and see if oil comes out. Perhaps the overflow line is plugged.

    There is a path that explains why oil is getting from the center reservoir to the front drain hole: if the oil is high in the center reservoir it could flow up the drain hole for the front flange, then out the weep hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    ...

    There is a path that explains why oil is getting from the center reservoir to the front drain hole: if the oil is high in the center reservoir it could flow up the drain hole for the front flange, then out the weep hole.
    The external weep hole and the passages for the front reservoir overflow are separated by the flange itself. I think if oil were coming in that way, it would have to over-fill the front reservoir until it reached the bottom of the spindle and the ID of the flange, before it could spill over and get to the weep hole.

    Cal

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    Yes. If the level in the center is high, then the drain from the front cover to the center section will ensure that the level in the front compartment is the same. Since lectrician is seeing oil coming out both through the weep hole and around the spindle, the level must be above the flange. So the sight glasses must not be working, perhaps the two holes are blocked.

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    I removed the aluminum plates behind the sight glasses. So i can see directly into the reservoir.

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    Had it once on a Caseneuve Also leaking oil
    It turned out there was some nylon strings trapped in the labyrint seal scooping up the oil

    Peter


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