10EE Taper Attachment Angle Adjustment Troubleshooting
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  1. #1
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    Default 10EE Taper Attachment Angle Adjustment Troubleshooting

    I have a 1946 10EE with taper attachment. I have had the lathe for a little over two years but until now have not had a need to use the TA. In getting behind the lathe and dusting off the TA, reading the manual and starting to play with it, I've found two issues I would like to address.

    1) Angle setting magnifying lens, and
    2) Vernier gear slop.

    Magnifying Lens

    The lense is in place, but has aged and is yellow. It is very difficult to read much of anything through it.
    10ee-taper-attachment-magnifying-lense-045-01-19-640.jpg

    I would like to get it out of the housing to see if it can be polished to get rid of the yellowing, or if it can be replaced. Since it is a magnifying lense, to replace it, I would need to find an original, or find someone who can make a new one. There is what appears to be a retaining ring keeping the lense in place. However, the lense is loose and can be depressed but seems to be spring loaded and pops back up. The retaining ring does not budge, nither in rotation (sliding around in the housing) or in being able to be pried out of the housing. I have not wanted to get very aggressive with it until I know more.

    Vernier Gear Slop

    There is quite a bit of slop in side to side movement of the taper bar. About a whole degree of slop. This cannot be right so there must be an adjustment or fix. There is a cover that looks to be removable, with two small flat socket head screws (FHSS). Looking at the parts diagram, it is difficult to tell if there is any adjustment within the vernier gears for removing this slop. The curve gear rack on the taper bar has a couple similar but larger FHSSs that appear to mount it in place. I can imagine that there could be adjustability in that rack mount that might be used to reduce the slop.

    If anyone can give me some insights and/or advise me on how to handle these issues, I would appreciate hearing from you.

    Thanks in advance,

    Rick

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    I completely ignore the lens (can't read it - don't need it) and I don't put much stock in the vernier dial (just use for roughing the angle).

    I recently made some MT2 collets. The spec for the taper was 100 thousandths change on the diameter over 2 inches of carriage travel. That is 50 thousandths of tool (or cross slide) travel over 2 inches. I set a dial indicator on the back of the cross slide and checked the cross slide movement over 2 inches of carriage movement on the trav-a-dial.
    When two inches on the travel dial corresponded to 50 thousandths on the cross slide movement (guided by the taper attachment) - Bingo - Time to start cutting the taper.

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    Thanks. That is interesting. It was only a short while ago that I started using that same type of technique for precisely milling angles and have not used it on the lathe, until now.

    While waiting for a reply, I set up an indicator on my cross slide against a vertical side of a hex collet block held in a 6-jaw chuck and was using it to check how close to zero I got by adjusting the taper bar by eye. It was about 1/2º off over 1", so I am making adjustments with the vernier and checking it with the dial indicator, as you describe. I'll have to check it a couple times, but it was seeming like one revolution of the vernier, which should be 1º, it was not that close. But, like I said, I need to check this out a few times to verify. It may be that the vernier is only useful for moving the bar.

    The method you describe is essentially trial and error. How many iterations do you find it typically takes to get close enough? I know, "close enough" differs for each of us and likely by what sort of taper you are turning. I am interested in hearing more about your process, etc.

    Rick

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    On every lathe the angle plates and witness marks are just a rough indicator of angle. They were never designed to be spot on. Spot on is what you do when you set up the TA. There are several methods. I usually chuck up a standard if I have one . Then with a DI I track the standard for zero. If no standard is available, cut some scrap and measure with a mic until over distance, you get your number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    ...snip...(just use for roughing the angle).
    ...snip...
    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    On every lathe the angle plates and witness marks are just a rough indicator of angle. They were never designed to be spot on.
    ...snip...
    I appreciate the info on how to set up the TA very accurately and have implemented one method.

    But... there are times when "spot on" is not needed and attempting to make it so is just a waste of time. There are times when all I want is a "rough" angle for a taper. I would like to have the TA set up (the vernier) so it is actually useful for quickly setting an approximate angle and that is all. For this I would like to have a vernier that has a whole lot less "backlash" than an entire rotation of the vernier dial.

    I would like to hear from anyone who can advise me on how to tighten up the backlash on the vernier dial.

    1) That is, is there an adjustment within the vernier mechanism for which the cover over the vernier gears needs to be removed?

    2) Or, or "and", is backlash managed by loosening and moving the arched rack on the taper bar?

    Thanks,

    Rick

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    The backlash problem is eliminated by adjusting to the Vernier in one direction only.

    At one time, I was cutting a lot of tapers on a EE in new condition, I played around with calibrating the taper attachment So to more quickly dialing in a taper, but, found I still needed to use a sine bar for precision.

    The EE has a very nice taper attachment non the less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    The backlash problem is eliminated by adjusting to the Vernier in one direction only.

    At one time, I was cutting a lot of tapers on a EE in new condition, I played around with calibrating the taper attachment So to more quickly dialing in a taper, but, found I still needed to use a sine bar for precision.

    The EE has a very nice taper attachment non the less.
    Thank you, Donie. That is progress. A little more information would be very helpful. Is adjusting the vernier just a matter of removing the cover? By what means is the vernier adjusted? And how do I know which direction is the "only" one? Will this all be self evident once the cover is removed?

    I'm considering taking the whole or part of the TA off of the machine. The lathe is backed up to a wall where there is some room to get in there, but it is awkward. I do not know how it comes apart either. I am hesitant to do this as I know it can be a bit of a big deal. I know on some other lathes, the TA is located by means of pins with screws holding it in place. The cramped quarters makes it a bit more challenging. I had better clean up all the shavings and chips or I will surely loose a fastener or two.

    Rick

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    There is a type of backlash associated with the taper attachment you should be on the lookout for. This is not related to the vernier dial because you have set the angle and locked the taper attachment at this point. I found that with a dial indicator on the back of the cross slide, that if you cut a taper, feed in and cut in the opposite direction, the cutting tool may travel a long way before it follows the taper again. I don't know exactly what causes this, because the cross feed dial is not turning.

    I do know how to fix it, only cut in one direction, and make sure you have a couple of inches of travel before the part to take up the backlash before the next pass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    There is a type of backlash associated with the taper attachment you should be on the lookout for. This is not related to the vernier dial because you have set the angle and locked the taper attachment at this point. I found that with a dial indicator on the back of the cross slide, that if you cut a taper, feed in and cut in the opposite direction, the cutting tool may travel a long way before it follows the taper again. I don't know exactly what causes this, because the cross feed dial is not turning.

    I do know how to fix it, only cut in one direction, and make sure you have a couple of inches of travel before the part to take up the backlash before the next pass.
    Thanks. I'll be on the watch for that. I wonder what could be causing that.

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    There is a type of backlash associated with the taper attachment you should be on the lookout for. This is not related to the vernier dial because you have set the angle and locked the taper attachment at this point. I found that with a dial indicator on the back of the cross slide, that if you cut a taper, feed in and cut in the opposite direction, the cutting tool may travel a long way before it follows the taper again. I don't know exactly what causes this, because the cross feed dial is not turning.

    I do know how to fix it, only cut in one direction, and make sure you have a couple of inches of travel before the part to take up the backlash before the next pass.
    I can't remember exactly how the TA works on a 10EE, but on many lathes it works by moving the cross slide screw, which is held axially only by a thrust bearing in the TA and is therefore allowed to telescope within the front part of the screw assembly which contains the collar and handwheel. The lost motion is caused by backlash between the cross slide screw and nut.

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    Magnifying Lens

    The lense is in place, but has aged and is yellow. It is very difficult to read much of anything through it.

    I would like to get it out of the housing to see if it can be polished to get rid of the yellowing, or if it can be replaced. Since it is a magnifying lense, to replace it, I would need to find an original, or find someone who can make a new one. There is what appears to be a retaining ring keeping the lense in place. However, the lense is loose and can be depressed but seems to be spring loaded and pops back up. The retaining ring does not budge, nither in rotation (sliding around in the housing) or in being able to be pried out of the housing. I have not wanted to get very aggressive with it until I know more.
    Last February, I received a quote from Monarch for the 10EE TA lense and bezel glass:

    Lense EE-1761 $137.00 3 weeks

    Bezel Glass ZZ-1762 $27.00 Stock

    Mike

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    When I set my taper attachment up I set it to zero carefully, then used the camming guide bearings to adjust it to 0 travel relative to the bed. The vernier is pretty good, last time I needed to set it up for a MT3 taper I used the glass to 'rough' set it and it ended up dead on, I don't recall having to tweek it either way. Blind squirrels and all that...

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    Below shows what I did to replace mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Finally got around to making a new plastic magnifying lens and glass cover cap for the taper. Having just finished the Ser.60 taper attachment, I found the drive to tie up loose ends on this taper, too.

    The plastic I used is acrylic. Turned OK, made up a radius, sanded down to 1000 grit, then polished it with only one grab from the buffer, shooting it from my fingers. It is not the best part for gripping. Black line was scratched with a scribe and Sharpie'd. The glass cap was cut from a picture frame. Cutting a glass circle that small was not so smooth... Lots of stoning the edge down!


    IMG_6896 by crh2765, on Flickr

    IMG_6898 by crh2765, on Flickr


    Look closely at the second picture and you can see the chipped up edges of the glass cap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    There is a type of backlash associated with the taper attachment you should be on the lookout for. This is not related to the vernier dial because you have set the angle and locked the taper attachment at this point. I found that with a dial indicator on the back of the cross slide, that if you cut a taper, feed in and cut in the opposite direction, the cutting tool may travel a long way before it follows the taper again. I don't know exactly what causes this, because the cross feed dial is not turning.

    I do know how to fix it, only cut in one direction, and make sure you have a couple of inches of travel before the part to take up the backlash before the next pass.
    I managed to get the TA set to a taper I wanted and found the same sort of backlash. My lathe has a two-axis DRO, carriage and cross slide. I was fussing with a dial indicator on the cross slide for a while, but realized I could rely on the DRO to show me how it was moving. I moved the indicator to the front of the TA, magnetic base on the vernier and needle on the TA bar, making it possible to track movement of the bar. This allowed me to get the TA set to essentially "zero" angle, as indicated by a movement of 0.0002" over 3.8" carriage travel - after accounting for the unidentified backlash. That backlash on my TA is anywhere from 0.75" to 0.85", seemingly depending on the taper angle.

    In setting up the taper I wanted to cut, I used the dial indicator readings and calculated the angle and made incremental movements until I got to close enough to the angle I wanted. Didn't take that many interations. This one by no means warranted a dead nuts on taper.

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Below shows what I did to replace mine:
    Thanks, TheOldCar. Nice to see what it is supposed to look like. Makes me want to get mine fixed. I seldom cut precision tapers, so being able to set the TA by the lense reading would suffice for most of what I do. And thanks to the responses on this thread, I now know how to set it more precisely for those that require it.

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kruger View Post
    Thanks, TheOldCar. Nice to see what it is supposed to look like. Makes me want to get mine fixed. I seldom cut precision tapers, so being able to set the TA by the lense reading would suffice for most of what I do. And thanks to the responses on this thread, I now know how to set it more precisely for those that require it.

    Rick
    There is a knack to properly using a TA. Backlash is present even on the tightest of machines. It is unavoidable and it doesn't matter, if you know how to deal with it. When either setting the TA up or actually cutting with it in use, the user must always load up the machine before either the DI or tool hits the work piece. There are are lot of bits and pieces between the the TA guide and the tool and they have to loaded before contact. So, what I do is always travel the carriage as long as possible past the start point to engage the next cut. I then lean my whole body weight on the carriage against its forward travel. This makes certain all the backlash is eliminated before the tool engages the work. It is habit and necessary, even on new machines.

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    Backlash is an everyday thing, but backlash than can go on for 1 to 2 full inches while almost invisible is unique to the taper attachment and deserved being fussed over.

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    I think digger doug or someone else made the comment of using a DRO. I can’t imagine anything that would make setup and use of the taper attachment easier. I keep putting off buying & installing a DRO on at least one of the lathes. I need to just do it.

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    I've never owned a DRO, so I have to ask. Is there a DRO that will calculate the angle being traveled? The information is there, and an angle could be displayed, I'm just wondering if this is a function built into them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    I've never owned a DRO, so I have to ask. Is there a DRO that will calculate the angle being traveled? The information is there, and an angle could be displayed, I'm just wondering if this is a function built into them.
    Mine does have a taper function

    screenshot-2019-05-10-04-54-57.jpg

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