10EE tube drive not running - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 46
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    There was a thread by posted I believe by "monarchist" stating the merits of retaining the tube drive system my machine has. I read it rather quickly planning to go back and reread it and check out the links he'd referenced. Unfortunately it is gone. If he or someone would care to comment on when it is time to move on to a VFD conversion that would be most helpful. I know there are a number of folk on this forum who could fix my machine and keep it running longer than I'll be around but trying to guide me trough what to do from a distance isn't going to be a slippery road to go down. I just don't have the electronic knowledge to follow what many are trying to tell me. It's been tough for my brother to trouble shoot from 600 miles away and he is much more comfortable with VFD drives then the tube system. Thanks for your continued help. All the best, Don Hansen.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    333

    Default

    Can you tell us the position of the 5A fuse, preferably with a photo?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    lathe-wiring-2-001.jpgfuse.jpglathe-wiring-2-002.jpgAttached is a photo where the 5A fuse goes and a copy of the wiring diagram that came from Monarch for my specific lathe. The picture of where the fuse resides is located on the right side of the machine below the tail stock. Hope this information helps. Thanks, Don Hansen.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    lathe-wiring-2-001.jpgAttached is a photo where the 5A fuse goes and a copy of the wiring diagram that came from Monarch for my specific lathe. The picture of where the fuse resides is located on the right side of the machine below the tail stock. Hope this information helps. Thanks, Don Hansen.

    Dang, it's a modular drive and not a WiaD. No wonder I couldn't ID the fuse.

    Very likely some wire is shorted to the chassis in one of the passthoughs. PITA to isolate, but sometimes you're lucky in just looking at the wire where it goes through. Just moving the wiring around and putting grommet material on the chassis can isolate the short if you don't find it.

    Here's the troubleshooting list from the modular manual in case it is needed:


  5. Likes thermite liked this post
  6. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    dallas,tx
    Posts
    2,383
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    439
    Likes (Received)
    393

    Default

    That must be one of the first 59's with a Modular Drive?

  7. Likes thermite liked this post
  8. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Louisiana
    Posts
    226
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    31

    Default

    looking at the manual for the modular lathe there are two 5 amp fusses I am guessing it is the one that powers the relays and the fan if you have replaced the fusses and it blows again I would disconnect the fan and try again. 5 amp fusses are cheap compared to a 3 HP 3 ph motor that you will need for a vfd. Another thing is if that is the fuses that blows you will need to find the short as that circuit is needed for the VFD power also.

  9. Likes MikeS-54, thermite liked this post
  10. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,311
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    634
    Likes (Received)
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    That must be one of the first 59's with a Modular Drive?
    I wonder when in 59' the machine was built. There are two square-dial 10EEs here in town, built a few months apart in 1960. One is a WiaD and the other a Modular drive.

    Cal

  11. Likes thermite liked this post
  12. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    19,528
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    6214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I wonder when in 59' the machine was built. There are two square-dial 10EEs here in town, built a few months apart in 1960. One is a WiaD and the other a Modular drive.

    Cal
    I'd bet there is no firm cutoff by date or S/N - only a record as to the last-ever MG or Wiad shipped, brand-new, not refurbished.

    We've already seen that Monarch had to shift priorities during wartime - external command, not their choosing.

    Safe bet they also shifted priorities by customer and overall order size / value during peacetime. Most any manufacturer has to do that, and not all that seldom.

    Then, too, we have evidence that MG's "at least" were built quite late where a customer already equipped with a line of them wished to maintain spares and method of operating unmixed on a newly added machine or few, rather than blend-in the newer technology.

    Overlaps in type can accordingly be many years long.

  13. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    Am posting an update on my 10EE. The 5 amp fuse for fuse 1 arrived Monday and I put it in and gave it a try. Nothing. The light didn't go on, no hum, no nothing. So I'm assuming something fried before the fuse gave up the ghost. So I'm at kind of a stand still. My brother is studying the Parker 514 SSD controller as many have suggested. Guess we're getting closer all the time! Thanks, Don Hansen.

  14. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    dallas,tx
    Posts
    2,383
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    439
    Likes (Received)
    393

    Default

    I feel your frustration. I fully restored my WIAD unit down to the last wire, resistor, etc. and its still not what I would consider super reliable. Its not the big things that go bad, but simple little ones that will completely down the machine. I don't use it for business and looking at those pretty glowing tubes is pretty neat. Kinda like owning a vintage Jaguar. Anybody that has will know what I am taking about. Sometimes you have to weigh the pros and cons of updating/retrofitting a modern drive. It may not do the job as sweetly as the original , but may save your blood pressure, especially if you are not an electronics savant.

  15. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    Am posting an update on my 10EE. The 5 amp fuse for fuse 1 arrived Monday and I put it in and gave it a try. Nothing. The light didn't go on, no hum, no nothing. So I'm assuming something fried before the fuse gave up the ghost. So I'm at kind of a stand still. My brother is studying the Parker 514 SSD controller as many have suggested. Guess we're getting closer all the time! Thanks, Don Hansen.
    So how far is the power getting? Here's the rough diagram from the 5A fuse :



    Check for power to the fuse then at the critical points afterwards. If you can't follow that diagram then you likely shouldn't try to replace the drive, either, as it's going to take at least as much debugging as this will.

    As an example: if the blower isn't coming on then either the 5A fuse is bad or there's no power coming from T3 - so check the inputs at T3 and outputs 2 & 33 from T3. You could have blown the secondary or power might not be getting to the primary. If the outputs are good at the transformer but there's no power at the fuse then something is gone in the wiring between those 2 points.


  16. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Elyria Ohio
    Posts
    1,655
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2917
    Likes (Received)
    599

    Default

    Are you sure the spindle control lever is in the "off" position. Ours wouldn't start if in the off position.

  17. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    gloucester ma
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    1336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    I feel your frustration. I fully restored my WIAD unit down to the last wire, resistor, etc. and its still not what I would consider super reliable. Its not the big things that go bad, but simple little ones that will completely down the machine. I don't use it for business and looking at those pretty glowing tubes is pretty neat. Kinda like owning a vintage Jaguar. Anybody that has will know what I am taking about. Sometimes you have to weigh the pros and cons of updating/retrofitting a modern drive. It may not do the job as sweetly as the original , but may save your blood pressure, especially if you are not an electronics savant.
    SHHHHHH!

    do not even think about mentioning the Prince of Darkness

    it is big bad mojo to speak of things Electrical and British......

  18. Likes daryl bane liked this post
  19. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    Are you sure the spindle control lever is in the "off" position. Ours wouldn't start if in the off position.
    If you look at the diagram you can see that the lever only interlocks the forward/reverse contactors (along with a bunch of other interlocks). If he's not getting blower it's something between the wall and the fan - meaning the disconnect, T3 or the 5A fuse (or wiring between all of those).

  20. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    Well finally some good news! With the help of my brother we(he) figured out several things. For starters my machine has a "house" light switch on the side of the left side of the cabinet. After taking a closer look it is obvious that it didn't come from the factory with that switch. It also became clear that the disconnect didn't function properly. It would not switch to the off position. I assume that was why a previous owner installed the on/off switch. We next checked to see that power was coming to the disconnect switch, which it was. But power was not coming out of the disconnect switch. So probably a bad switch. I removed the switch and connected the L1 wires, L2 wires, and L3 wires from the house switch to the wires going to the machine. After that it fired right up.

    I know I haven't solved the original problem as something isn't right as the fuse failed and the switch failed when I increased the RPM initially. So I know there is still a problem. I still feel this is the time to throw in the towel and switch to the Parker drive and retain the DC motor. My brother is almost done going through what all it take to rewire and fit the new drive. So I'll keep you posted and a big THANK YOU to all who have been most helpful. [I]'m sure this is just the tip of the iceberg and I'll be leaning on your expertise during the retrofit of the new drive. All the best, Don Hansen.



    bad switch.

  21. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    19,528
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    6214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    My brother is almost done going through what all it take to rewire and fit the new drive.
    I don't "sell" Parker-SSD. I rather prefer to see OEM 10EE drives - of any type - kept in service as long as practical.

    That said, the 514C-16 (or 32) drive is a very "universal" critter. Which means.. it takes about five reading runs through the manual to sort the small edge-case of it that a 10EE actually needs.

    It is all there in the manual. Use of a "ripple filter" inductor on the output included, so he can certainly sort it all with no outside help.

    Even so, if it helps him - and you - to have an outside "sanity" check on any of it, I'm happy to share what choices went into my "nominal 3 HP" drives and were passed on to Mark (everettengr) to operate his 5 HP one.

    His own research in turn, shared back, helped me to improve my ones. Too close to the trees to see the forest, I had missed some features he found and put to good use.

    We run them "in between the lines" in one respect, (AC input Voltage 320-350), and a tad outside of bounds in another (current limit settings (16 A +150% short-term overload for the dash-16).

    Thermally, the dash-16 is a 6 HP drive with good reserve, so it manages either generation of motors, even though the dash-32 would be the "school solution" fit for the 5 HP ones.

    The separate SSD 507 for Field supply I run at 140 VDC max, not 115 VDC, and it, too, has a ripple filter inductor on the output.

    The DC output side inductors really help, and the improvements in smooth running and useful direct-belt RPM range are easily as nice to have as the audible noise reduction. Most of all, they also protect older-generation motors from damage, and very, very well.

    Full-isolation boost transformers, AND NOT Autotransformers, insure a kinder, gentler impact on the "local grid" - your shop, home, and neighbours on the same utility service transformer. SCR-class DC Drives can be rudely noisy critters, "upstream" side.

    Keeping the Armature and Field controls separate, instead of "ganged" on a single knob seems a nuisance, but actually has some advantages. Being able to "dial" torque up or down, or shift the Field Weakening priorities at will.

    And, of course, each implementor of a drive this flexible can set his own priorities, optimizations, and compromises. Then also very easily change them, "at will", more than once - even "on the fly".

    My PM box is usually full. The email function seems to work, mostly. If not, shout me up right here in-thread.

  22. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    gloucester ma
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    1336

    Default

    SO it is just about time to throw in the towel and spend vertical dollars on a drive rather than follow troubleshooting techniques and see if the stock drive will be made to work?

    Do you want a project or a lathe?

    I would first want to make sure the machine runs, why not do that? It is complex but not brain surgery. Then you can assess the machine and see what else it needs, it is still an entire machine, not just a drive.

    Once the lathe runs, or you determine it will cost vertical cash to make it run, then consider a drive transplant.

    My guess is you are going to be a year minimum in a transplant, and what happens if it isn't quite right? IF your brother runs out of steam on this project?

    There are many reasons to make it run before taking it apart.

  23. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Louisiana
    Posts
    226
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    31

    Default

    Throwing in the towel at this stage in troubleshooting means that 10EE will be going to the scrap yard as you need to see where the power is failing at. You will not be able to get power to the new drive fusses do fail for no reason they do age and blow prematurely. There is a new parker 514 32amp on ebay for $900.

  24. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    40
    Likes (Received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    We next checked to see that power was coming to the disconnect switch, which it was. But power was not coming out of the disconnect switch. So probably a bad switch. I removed the switch and connected the L1 wires, L2 wires, and L3 wires from the house switch to the wires going to the machine. After that it fired right up.
    House switch? I'm assming that you mean some sort of light switch? You're saying that there's a household light switch acting as the disconnect? And the disconnect somehow broke and this switch was installed when you replaced the idler bearings?

    1) A household light switch is not rated for this use. I'd be amazed if they were even voltage rated for 240V (likely their max is 250 and that doesn't mean you should run them anywhere near that). Max amps isn't going to be near the lathe's needs.

    2) A household light switch is only going to switch one leg. You need to switch 2.

    3) No overload protection on the switch means that it'll be happy to weld on.

    You've got an accident waiting to happen there. Fix the disconnect, it's standard and all the parts are available. There's some damn good reasons to have the disconnect there and wired as it was originally done and no good reasons to bypass it.

  25. Likes labeeman, thermite liked this post
  26. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    19,528
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    6214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    House switch? I'm assming that you mean some sort of light switch? You're saying that there's a household light switch acting as the disconnect? And the disconnect somehow broke and this switch was installed when you replaced the idler bearings?

    1) A household light switch is not rated for this use. I'd be amazed if they were even voltage rated for 240V (likely their max is 250 and that doesn't mean you should run them anywhere near that). Max amps isn't going to be near the lathe's needs.

    2) A household light switch is only going to switch one leg. You need to switch 2.

    3) No overload protection on the switch means that it'll be happy to weld on.

    You've got an accident waiting to happen there. Fix the disconnect, it's standard and all the parts are available. There's some damn good reasons to have the disconnect there and wired as it was originally done and no good reasons to bypass it.
    Uhh.. well. I plead guilty to replacing a 1930's technology box not a lot smaller than a Russian anti-tank mine with a "modern" rotary disconnect with lockout tab and isolated operating shaft, hand-dial to the guts and but $20 to $40, complete from "the usual suspects" amongst 'tronics NOS remaindermen, and US-made to boot.

    But my protective devices are simply not in the same box, and that ain't no household lighting gadget, to begin with, either.

    Closest to almost-legal one might be an "oil burner" DP switch, and still not really good enough. Hopefully, that is what was used 'coz it is more "simply inadequate" than outright suicide-kit.

    Either way, it wants a blind-date with a wastebin.

    A 10EE is chock full of lethal voltages by necessity.

    No compelling reason to go hanging ripcords or hand-grenade pull-pins off of any part of those.

    The reverse, rather. Safely imprisoned for life, padded cell, maximum security wing of a well-managed nuthouse, and a 10EE won't offer harm to a soul.

    Nothing any more unsanely unpredictable or potentially dangerous should be left at-large than the solitary nut as holds both the cross and long-axis handwheels at the same time.

    That's the one to watch to minimize damage, as it takes a Court order and cooperation of his family to lock that "pilot error" SOB up...



Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
2