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10EE wiring Start-Stop switch bypassing ESLR

dinotom

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Good afternoon,

I am mostly finished re-installing the motors and re-wiring the lathe. I want to test that the exciter and MG Unit are functional.

I have the gearbox out so I cannot wire the ESLR into the circuit (I guess I could but the whole thing is apart)

I am using new switches, they are both GE CR104PXG40's, which are dual NO and NC switches.


Switch schematic
310741-10ee-wiring-start-stop-switch-bypassing-eslr-ge_cr104pxg40_diagramonswitch.jpg


Switch terminals
GE_CR104PXG40_NOSideTerminals.jpg

GE_CR104PXG40_NCSideTerminals.jpg

I need someone to review my wiring design for correctness since I always prefer a second set of eyes on these things prior to hitting a button and blowing something up.

Here is the Contactor to Start-Stop switch portion of my 1944 EE's electrical schematic.
Monarch_10EE_Image_ContactorToStart-StopSwitchSchematic.jpg

Here is my crude schematic, where I am bypassing wire #3's route to the ESLR switch and then onto the Start button.
Monarch_10EE_Image_MyCrudeSchematicBypassingESLR.jpg

Anyone have any thoughts on this please reply.

One additional question, Can anyone tell me what the other 2 non-numbered terminals are on each side of the push buttons? (The NO and NC side) One is surely the ground, the other which looks more like a terminal I am not sure of. I bought all these switches New, open box on Ebay (I got 12 of them for $50) so none of them had any instructions and I cannot find a terminal diagram or any wiring information on the internet for them.
 
Last edited:
Are the extra terminals for pilot lights? The ELSR switches are not momentary, but latched on/off. You would not want to require hitting a start button each time you reverse the carriage direction,or shut the motor off.
 
Good afternoon,

I am mostly finished re-installing the motors and re-wiring the lathe. I want to test that the exciter and MG Unit are functional.

I have the gearbox out so I cannot wire the ESLR into the circuit (I guess I could but the whole thing is apart)

I am using new switches, they are both GE CR104PXG40's, which are dual NO and NC switches.

Switch schematic
310741-10ee-wiring-start-stop-switch-bypassing-eslr-ge_cr104pxg40_diagramonswitch.jpg


...
I need someone to review my wiring design for correctness since I always prefer a second set of eyes on these things prior to hitting a button and blowing something up.

Here is the Contactor to Start-Stop switch portion of my 1944 EE's electrical schematic.
View attachment 310744

Here is my crude schematic, where I am bypassing wire #3's route to the ESLR switch and then onto the Start button.
View attachment 310748

Anyone have any thoughts on this please reply.

One additional question, Can anyone tell me what the other 2 non-numbered terminals are on each side of the push buttons? (The NO and NC side) One is surely the ground, the other which looks more like a terminal I am not sure of. I bought all these switches New, open box on Ebay (I got 12 of them for $50) so none of them had any instructions and I cannot find a terminal diagram or any wiring information on the internet for them.
This really has nothing to do with the ELSR switches or gearbox on your machine. This is the motor/generator (MG) starter circuit. I'm having trouble deciphering your diagram. Study this post and see if it helps you out: For the start switch, you use the normally open contacts. For the stop switch, you use the normally closed contacts. As we've discussed before, you machine's ELSR doesn't have a neutral switch, so ignore that part. (For others following along, dinotom's machine is an ELSR round-dial with a square-dial MG and DC control panel.) The portion of the schematic posted above is for a square-dial ELSR setup. Round-dial ELSR's don't have the neutral position switch shown, so it's possible to start the MG with the spindle on. Wiring diagram EE-2679 shows the correct setup for ELSR switches and the MG starter circuit. Send me an e-mail and I sent you a copy.

I believe that Tom W is correct, the extra switch terminals are for the pilot light. The switch schematic seems to be specific to some application, but you can see that the pilot light is shown. Is there an internal connection between the two switches, as shown, or was that done with a jumper? I don't think that any of the terminals are ground terminals. If you're going to use the pilot light, you need to figure out what bulb is installed.

Cal
 
This really has nothing to do with the ELSR switches or gearbox on your machine. This is the motor/generator (MG) starter circuit. I'm having trouble deciphering your diagram. Study this post and see if it helps you out:
Cal

Cal,

It is pretty clear in the schematic, which is for my machine according to Terrie and according to the notes at the bottom of it, that Terminal 3 from the contactor goes to the ELSR and then terminal 3A goes from the ELSR to the start button on the start-stop switch. I am just trying to test if the MG Unit will start for now so I am going directly from terminal 3 to the start button. Another thought that just popped into mind is these switches are rated for 125VAC, this machine is running on 220V.

The first switch of this type and model number I bought, I got directly from a GE parts supplier who said this switch could be swapped for the original. Any thoughts on this? I have some similar 240v rated GE pushbutton switches I could replace these with.

I had read through the post you noted. I re-read it and I see there is some note on different wiring for RPC three phase. I am using a Phase Perfect 3 Phase converter so I will make that modification.

Using the revised version of the thread you noted above, I am operating under the assumption that this is the wiring setup I should be employing given the Phase Perfect converter I am using.
10EE Start Circuit - C-H Start v2-4b.jpg

Also, just for clarification, my machine does NOT have the drum switch.
 
Tom, if you search the WIAD threads I am sure you will find an answer to your questions. A few years back I added ELSR and VSR to a WIAD machine that did not come with them originally. I had all three circuit diagrams to work from, and there were a lot of subtle differences. The control circuit changed from low voltage to 220V. Details are out there, you just have to search the old forum posts.

-Dave
 
I have rewired the start-stop to the schematic shown in Cal's revised version of the thread he noted above. I have added the jumper from L2-3 removing the one from L3-3 (blue wire) since I am using a Phase Perfect 3 phase converter.

Monarch_10EE_Image_GECR104PXG40_WiredNewJumperForRPCSchematic.jpg

I also forgot to mention that all these switches, when they came had these wires on them. (Some also had green wires connected to the small screw head terminal, thus why I think it is a ground), so obviously they weren't new, open box as advertised but they all do look relatively unused. The one I bought from the GE parts supplier had no wires.

The way they are wired appears to be to allow holding functionality or possibly allow voltage to go to the light if that lower terminal the wire terminates on is actually for the light. (blue circled area). I'm not sure, someone with better electrical knowledge can opine on this?

InkedMonarch_10EE_Image_GECR104PXG40_WiredasCame_LI.jpg
 
Cal,

It is pretty clear in the schematic, which is for my machine according to Terrie and according to the notes at the bottom of it, that Terminal 3 from the contactor goes to the ELSR and then terminal 3A goes from the ELSR to the start button on the start-stop switch. I am just trying to test if the MG Unit will start for now so I am going directly from terminal 3 to the start button. ...
Unfortunately, the drawing in question, EE-3218, is for a ELSR equipped, square-dial 10EE, with motor/generator drive and without rapid leadscrew return option. The portion of the drawing for ELSR switches is NOT correct for your ELSR equipped round-dial; everything else is just fine, since you have a square-dial motor/generator set and DC control panel (this was not uncommon during the last six months or so of round-dial production).

Here is a photo of a square-dial ELSR housing:
310345d1610339601-looking-some-elsr-parts-img_0995.jpg
Please take note of the THREE micro-switches and FIVE wires. The three black wires are C1, C2 and C3. On MG machines, they route to the DC control panel and control the forward and reverse contactor coils. The white wires connect to the neutral switch. One goes to the start/stop station and the other to terminal 3 on the top of the main AC contactor (aka motor starter).

Here is the ELSR and start/stop station portion of square-dial ELSR drawing EE-3218
EE_3218 - ELSR & StartStop detail.jpg
Note that it shows THREE micro-switches with five wires leading from the ELSR housing, as described above.

Here is your photo of your ELSR switches:
278563d1581547185-restoration-monarch-10ee-serial-26080-delivered-11-2-1944-buick-switchcaseinterior_left.jpg
source: link
They are located in the Reverse Control Housing Cover (E14-49) of the tombstone-shaped Reverse Control Housing (E14-13), on the front of the headstock. Note that there are TWO micro-switches and THREE wires (wires C1, C2, and C3).

Here is the ELSR and start/stop station portion of a round-dial ELSR drawing EE-2679
EE_2679_5 - ELSR & StartStop detail.jpg
Please note that it shows TWO micro-switches and three wires (C1, C2 & C3), which is what all ELSR round-dials have. See also round-dial Parts Picture No. E-14. Only TWO "Micrometer [sic] Switchs" are shown: parts E14-26 and E14-61.

It may well be that EE-3218 was used to wire your machine, in which case the technician simply knew to disregard the missing neutral switch. Or perhaps there was a red-lined version of EE-3218, corrected to line out the missing neutral switch, used to wire ELSR round-dials with square-dial MG sets. Who knows? But the bottom line is, your machine NEVER HAD A NEUTRAL SWITCH.

Using the revised version of the thread you noted above, I am operating under the assumption that this is the wiring setup I should be employing given the Phase Perfect converter I am using.
View attachment 310830
Yes and no. That drawing is one of two drawings used to illustrate how the circuit functions, in this case, tracing the path of current during the time the start button is pressed. It's NOT the wiring diagram. See the previous drawing instead and perhaps re-read the text.

Also, just for clarification, my machine does NOT have the drum switch.
Just for clarification, I understand exactly what you have.

Cal
 
Just for clarification, I understand exactly what you have.

Cal

Cal,

Thank you for the detailed response. My "Just for clarification" note was so anyone reading this thread in the future would know that my machine did not have the drum switch. In no way was that meant in any other context.

Since I am not as familiar with these machines as all of you are, was the drum switch replaced by the selector knob on later round dial machines? If so that clears up a lot of questions for me (which was made clear by the detail in your post).

Per your suggestion, I have re-read the revised post and I see what you are referring to.
 








 
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