1941 10EE Headstock dis-assembly question
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  1. #1
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    Default 1941 10EE Headstock dis-assembly question

    I am in the process of bringing back to life a Round Dial machine. I've stripped it all down and have already cleaned up and painted the base and bed. Now I'm working on the headstock (casting number EE-2527). The plan is to remove all components (for individual cleaning and inspection – and replacement of bearings if/as needed) so that the casting can be given a really good cleaning out and a coat of paint. I've got it almost completely disassembled except for the shifter shaft assembly. According to the drawings I have downloaded and found on this forum, there is a press-fit plug (EE-1678) that acts as the spindle for the reverse threading gear. The way I see it, I need to pull EE-1678 out in order to get all of the parts inside to come out (there is also a grub screw that is driven in from the base). The reverse gear is in the way of getting the main spindle gear above it from being removed. Its reverse gear bearing is ‘stuck’ on its spindle – my guess is that I should be able to pull it off after I removed the retaining collar…but it won’t move.

    Question: Has anyone pulled this part out before from this vintage of headstock that can offer some helpful tips? At the moment, the way I plan to do it is to drill and tap three No. 10 holes around the perimeter of EE-1678 so I can bolt a pulling slug on and use that to get EE-1678 out…unless there is an easier way that I am not seeing. I figure on being home-free after that (famous last words, right?)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails monarch_ee_99_headstock-idler-shifter-shaft.jpg   img_20180808_0735005.jpg   img_20180808_0734482.jpg   img_20180808_0734370.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phayb View Post
    I am in the process of bringing back to life a Round Dial machine. I've stripped it all down and have already cleaned up and painted the base and bed. Now I'm working on the headstock (casting number EE-2527). The plan is to remove all components (for individual cleaning and inspection – and replacement of bearings if/as needed) so that the casting can be given a really good cleaning out and a coat of paint. I've got it almost completely disassembled except for the shifter shaft assembly. According to the drawings I have downloaded and found on this forum, there is a press-fit plug (EE-1678) that acts as the spindle for the reverse threading gear. The way I see it, I need to pull EE-1678 out in order to get all of the parts inside to come out (there is also a grub screw that is driven in from the base). The reverse gear is in the way of getting the main spindle gear above it from being removed. Its reverse gear bearing is ‘stuck’ on its spindle – my guess is that I should be able to pull it off after I removed the retaining collar…but it won’t move.

    Question: Has anyone pulled this part out before from this vintage of headstock that can offer some helpful tips? At the moment, the way I plan to do it is to drill and tap three No. 10 holes around the perimeter of EE-1678 so I can bolt a pulling slug on and use that to get EE-1678 out…unless there is an easier way that I am not seeing. I figure on being home-free after that (famous last words, right?)
    Bearings.. are not cheap... but by experience to-date at least some will pass the 100 year mark in service. Perhaps most. Too few have failed to have good figures just yet.

    How bad were yours to send you off on this .... detour?

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    I have done this on my later '59 EE, which is very similar. Unfortunately I don't remember any special issues getting it apart. Again on the fringes of my memory, can the sliding square part with the two tapped holes be used as a sliding hammer to knock the rear bush out? I sorta maybe remember sticking my hand down there and using it to knock that bush out...or was it fantasy? Anyway your idea of a puller slug is a good one if the nothing easier will work. The main issue I found was in installing a new front bronze bush for that sliding part as it is captured between two bushes making install rather difficult. I think I made a dummy rear support bush to hold the sliding part and some other thing?? and was able to accurately tap in the new bush straight without binding. Very fussy work.

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    Daryl...thanks for the reply. The idea of using the shaft as a slide hammer is interesting. It crossed my mind but after having another look, I'll see if it can work. I might even be able to bolt on an extension of sorts so I can 'bring the handle to the outside'.

    By the way...I tried to find your photos of when you rebuilt your headstock but could only find a photobucket page. Is that all there is?

    Fabio

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    It's not a 'detour' really. The machine is really, really dirty. It sat out in a barn for a while as well. I want the piece of mind knowing I went through the entire machine so that when it's done, it's done for a LONG time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phayb View Post
    It's not a 'detour' really. The machine is really, really dirty. It sat out in a barn for a while as well. I want the piece of mind knowing I went through the entire machine so that when it's done, it's done for a LONG time
    Problem is . it is HARDER to assess the bearings once the HS is off the bed. At as much as $2500 or so a set, not all 10EE as need those actually GET them. Fortunately, few need new ones.

    So long as.. their old ones are handled with EXTREME care and cleanliness. Timken wheel bearings for a cornbinder pickup they are not. Angular-contact, of very high-grade, and with no patience with intrusion of any sort of debris. Newly displaced fretting corrosion black sludge that HAD BEEN harmlessly well away from bearings clinging to surfaces and lying down in sumps is high on that list.

    They aren't fond of being pounded-on, either, nor is there usually any need of it, thankfully.

    Your source for prior info here on PM is in the several threads about bearing replacement.

    All the other "stuff" is dealt with as part of most of those projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Problem is . it is HARDER to assess the bearings once the HS is off the bed. At as much as $2500 or so a set, not all 10EE as need those actually GET them. Fortunately, few need new ones.

    So long as.. their old ones are handled with EXTREME care and cleanliness. Timken wheel bearings for a cornbinder pickup they are not. Angular-contact, of very high-grade, and with no patience with intrusion of any sort of debris. Newly displaced fretting corrosion black sludge that HAD BEEN harmlessly well away from bearings clinging to surfaces and lying down in sumps is high on that list.

    They aren't fond of being pounded-on, either, nor is there usually any need of it, thankfully.

    Your source for prior info here on PM is in the several threads about bearing replacement.

    All the other "stuff" is dealt with as part of most of those projects.
    too far in at this point! might as well go for it!

    Watching with interest.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    too far in at this point! might as well go for it!
    ISTR we do have a thread showing the spindle on Vee blocks atop a surface plate, Dial Indicator set up for checking them out of the HS?

    Was that RC99, prior to putting his new ones back IN?

    Anyhoo - it is the "usual" setup for such work. There are other examples out there.

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    If you send me your email address, I can send you some more headstock pics. There really is not that many, but it may be of help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phayb View Post
    I am in the process of bringing back to life a Round Dial machine. ... I've got it almost completely disassembled except for the shifter shaft assembly. According to the drawings I have downloaded and found on this forum, there is a press-fit plug (EE-1678) that acts as the spindle for the reverse threading gear. The way I see it, I need to pull EE-1678 out in order to get all of the parts inside to come out (there is also a grub screw that is driven in from the base). The reverse gear is in the way of getting the main spindle gear above it from being removed. Its reverse gear bearing is ‘stuck’ on its spindle – my guess is that I should be able to pull it off after I removed the retaining collar…but it won’t move.
    ...
    That part of the headstock is essentially the same across all the versions of the headstock, including the square-dial headstock. Monarch rebuilds headstocks, so I'm sure they have a way to remove EE-1678 (EE-2892 in the later machines). It's worth calling Scott at Monarch and asking if he has any suggestions on how to proceed.

    If you strike out at Monarch, my initial suggestion would be to use an automotive "pickle fork" tool, as used for separating tie rod ball joints. If necessary, you could make a C-shaped spacer, with the angle of the tie rod tool milled on the end, so that you can tap the tool down vertically, using the opposing wedges to apply pressure to remove the EE-1678 (in the manner of using a pair of Jacobs taper wedges to remove a drill chuck from an arbor). However, if light pressure or taps don't budge the stub shaft, it's time to try something else.

    I wasn't aware of the grub screw. Does it go vertically up from the bottom of the headstock, so as to bear on EE-1678? Be aware that Monarch often uses two setscrews in this situation, the outer one is just a cap, with one deep in the hole to secure the mating part.

    What's the serial number and build date of your machine?

    Cal


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