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    Default 1942 10ee

    Can anyone tell me what the small belt does?Mine has No belt on it now. It's also been rigged to run on 120 volt. Will only turn up to 400rpm. Has original motor in it that's hooked to transmission. Mg motor is gone. Hope to do. Vfd conversion. Any recommendations on 3hp or 5hp. Thanks Ben

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    Hi Ben! There is a small belt that turns the oil pump. Is it the one shown below? I've actually got the wrong belt on there, but the load is not high.

    oil-drive-belt.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mut8dsc View Post
    Hi Ben! There is a small belt that turns the oil pump. Is it the one shown below? I've actually got the wrong belt on there, but the load is not high.

    oil-drive-belt.jpg
    Oil Pump ??? there is not oil pump there that belt is for the feed of the carriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    Oil Pump ??? there is not oil pump there that belt is for the feed of the carriage.
    Dang it!

    Yah hadda go and spoil easily a solid WEEK worth of fun.

    "FNG" was about to be sent-off to clear the oil galleries and check the oil-pressure...


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    Well, that was embarrassing. Now I can only hope Ben doesn’t think everyone is as ignorant as me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mut8dsc View Post
    Well, that was embarrassing. Now I can only hope Ben doesn’t think everyone is as ignorant as me.
    No foul, actually.

    "FNG".. most likely a US Navy term for F*****g New Guy" .. along with "SLJO" AKA "S**ty Little Jobs Officer".. is a role every one of us has had to play somewhere, sometime and usually more than just the ONE time - whenever we take up a new interest.

    "BTDTGTTS", have we not?

    So naturally? We pass it on to the NEXT arrival!

    All in good fun. Yah only tease folks yah actually LIKE, after all.

    "Enemies?" Yah don't want to let THOSE bastids even discover yer sneaking-up on 'em.

    You'd have to know humans? Or at least machina-shits-ists.

    Tough job. But somebody has to enjoy it.


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    There are lots of threads on the forum about VFD conversions. There are also alternatives. My favorite is Macona’s conversion using a brushless servo motor: Retrofit of 10EE Drive to AC Brushless Servo Motor. (It should be a sticky)

    Another option is using a DC power supply and retaining the original motor. E.g. lathehand’s conversion using a GE DC300: GE DC Drive or Beel’s conversion kit: Solid State DC drive retrofit

    But to answer your question, don’t even consider a 3HP VFD. 5HP VFD might work, it depends on how much low end slow speed torque you want. Monarch uses a 10HP motor for its conversions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    There are lots of threads on the forum about VFD conversions. There are also alternatives. My favorite is Macona’s conversion using a brushless servo motor: Retrofit of 10EE Drive to AC Brushless Servo Motor. (It should be a sticky)
    CAVEAT: "The knowledge" as to selecting and applying a "servo' motor and its associated controlled power is lore well-known to those who traffic in CNC machine tools - Jerry among them.

    But it is only "easy" for those who already HAVE both the skill and the access to suitable goods at favourable prices. Not all "salvage" or used gear is worth the risk. CNC spindles tend to have been run long and run HARD. Sometimes REALLY hard.

    A person going the "servo" route (he was not alone) should already have that background and associated resource set, lest it be about the most-expensive and time-consuming conversion among the many options.
    Another option is using a DC power supply and retaining the original motor. E.g. lathehand’s conversion using a GE DC300: GE DC Drive or Beel’s conversion kit: Solid State DC drive retrofit
    Beel/BICL first:

    Not Jonathan's "personal fault". He had no 10EE to experiment with when he tried to adapt a DC Drive his late Dad had designed MANY years earlier for a different purpose. It needed more changes than were ultimately economically sustainable off a tiny, tiny market. So it didn't get them. The other challenge was his having to try to do South 48 technical and warranty support from out of Canada. Round-trip, cross-border paperwork and such were a killer.

    End of the day, the Beel/BICL D510 drives were not the way forward.

    Better examples include any of several off-the-shelf "3-Phase-only" DC Drives, which are the easiest of all. Wire, configure, go make chips.

    Yah DO need 3-Phase to feed those drives. Oversized by enough they HAVE been run off RPC's. The RPC's also had to be oversized. Absent "easy" 3-Phase outta the wall, that's more pain than gain vs an OEM MG's need for a rather modest RPC, the WiaD and Modular OEM's being single-phase already.

    Unless your OEM goods are GONE already? Best to fix what yah have.

    Or look to the (Eurotherm)/ Parker SSD 514C-16 "Four Quadrant" regenerative single-phase DC Drives. Those can manage the higher single-phase input Voltages the 10EE motor needs for its minimum 230 VDC. Common 180 VDC drives such as KB cannot do that.

    Not cheap by the time the REQUIRED (per Reliance. And SSD. Not just me) ripple-filter and boost transformer costs are included.

    There are several documented examples in service with both the 3 HP and 5 HP OEM DC motors. I did my ones simply because I could. Most others were done out of necessity. The OEM systems were already gone, incomplete, or damaged.

    The only "gain" - same with the 3-Phase DC Drives - is that they can go SLOWER than any OEM drive. A LOT slower. Waaay less than one RPM.

    Or with damned little outside help to control it? EXACTLY one RPM.

    But who actually NEEDS that?

    A 10EE is a tad BULKY to wear as a wristwatch with a "sweep second hand". Even if yah don't mind winding-up several KVA to keep it running "on time".




    But to answer your question, don’t even consider a 3HP VFD. 5HP VFD might work, it depends on how much low end slow speed torque you want. Monarch uses a 10HP motor for its conversions...
    Agreed.

    5 HP AC (or even 2 HP DC) have had to be MADE to work for converted juice-drive (Sundstrand) 10EE for lack of space in the right places within the base casting. Else a jackshaft to allow use of OTHER available space. Or in one case, chain-drilling an access door in the casting, was it?

    We'll class the one done-up with a Ford Pinto "alleged-automobile" transmission as true "one off". Or so we can hope! Hem's sake. it's a 10EE! Can we at least have a stout '39 Packard ... or a Pont-a-Mousson?



    Otherwise, no matter how clever the VFD itself, a 7.5 HP 3-Phase motor is about the least as will be close enough to the DC motor's perfomance to not be a bother.

    Even so, those NEED retention of the reduction gearbox and are likely to need it more often than the "massive RESERVE torque" creature DC Motors need. So now yah have machining and fab work to do as well as finding a scarce gearbox that hasn't been trashed into costly repair work. OEM DC motors already HAVE all that.

    10 HP 3-Phase motor wants a fair sized and fair expensive VFD when run off single-phase. Monarch Lathe have used a very good one - "industrial grade". Not cheap. Not salvaged off eBay. Good as they get. And to be fair, probably put into "revenue earning" shops that HAVE 3-Phase outta the wall as often as not. buuuuut... the costs are a tad too present-day realistic for the average smallholder/hobbyist/retiree to duplicate as good a rig as Monarch uses.

    Monarch, after all, have waaay more experience than one guy workign alone, reinventing the wheel - basically in the dark, and off his own budget and research.

    VFD conversions DO work "OK". Some who have 'em LOVE 'em. Those who have ALSO had an(y) OEM DC system in good condition? More simply "accept" than "love".

    Some starting the conversions have quit. At least one if not two actually died before they finished - ill health, not the VFD's fault.

    It is very rare that those who do that sort of conversion fail at it. Most are happy - especially at the higher speeds Carbides like.

    Give a 10 or 15 HP AC motor a set of supplemental "blower duty" style fans so it doesn't fry itself at low RPM, high load, and yah can even slide by without the reduction gearbox otherwise wise for low-end of the RPM ranges.

    That low-RPM torque, and always having torque in RESERVE ..is why the DC motors are such a "tough act to follow".

    However... The 10 HP motor's are large.

    You'd want a later-model "module drive" 10EE for starting material. MG and WiaD era base castings don't have as much space as the Modulars do in their "engine room".

    Bottom line is keeping the OEM Dee Cee motor is best of all.

    OEM drive, SCR "drop in" vacuum-tube replacements, or third party Solid State DC Drive, it still has the edge at making a 10EE do what a 10EE does best. Run silent, cut deep, all tasking, regardless.

    Why don't new/factory refurbs still ship with new Dee Cee motors?

    Well. Check ABB/Baldor/Reliance "MSRP".

    That type of Dee Cee motor - or it's present-day equivalent - went to over eleven thousand bucks EACH over 20 years ago!

    TEN PERCENT of that money will buy a right-decent AC motor.

    If yah have a DC motor? KEEP IT!

    Or at least sell it to one of us who appreciates it!

    Last edited by thermite; 03-16-2020 at 02:33 PM.

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    The GE DC300 drives were sold right here on this forum a few years back. Lathehand is the only one I know who actually did the conversion, and he invested in a GE consulting engineer’s time to get all the parameters right. It is a sweet setup. Several others, myself included, bought the DC drives just in case. I don’t think I will ever use mine for the reason stated: the motor compartment on the Sundstrand machine is not long enough to fit a DC motor with attached 2-speed gearbox. Once I have the 59 running, I will sell the GE DC300.

    The Sundstrand machine might fit the right 3ph motor with attached gearbox, but it would require some diligent search to find one short enough. I’ve seen some short pump motors on some of the local farms, so I am keeping my eyes open. I have a 10HP Baldor non-C-face motor and a Reliant 10HP VFD sourced on the cheap from Ebay, just in case. I think the low end performance of that combination would probably be better than the Sundstrand.

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    This is a conversion I did several years ago using the Parker 514c-16 four quadrant DC Controller, with full documentation:

    43 10ee MG with Parker 514c-16 DC Controller


    Bill

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    Thanks guys for all the feed back. I got a lot to learn. Not to knowledge on electric motors and drives. We're in the water well busniess, vfd pumps that we use are simple applications. I should have some time to do some research with New York closing down for 2 weeks. Thanks again stay healthy everyone. Ben


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