1943 Electrical Problems

tom h · Feb 8, 2003

I am starting to restore this ancient gem.
I have gotten the gen set to run but there is no activity to the motor or the relays. Almost no voltage to the directional switch black wires, but 110 to the the red wires. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to check next. Also the schematic on the relay box cover would take a forensic acheologist to read. Does anyone have a schematic or other info for this machine. I am working on this for a non-profit center and they don't have a large budget.
I have really enjoyed reading many of the posts re this machine. Thanks to all for your contribution. Tom

bob · Feb 8, 2003

I assume this is a motor/generator type. If so I have the wiring diagram. Send me your address and I will copy and send to you
Bob

tom h · Feb 8, 2003

Thanks Bob
I am hoping that I won't need to replace any major components to get it going. the schematic will be invaluable in sorting this out. This was a retired Navy lathe that was supposed to have been functional when it arrived here. Unfortunately it got set aside and has been home to a family of wood rats. They get into anything that goes unused here. Good news is they haven't gnawed the wires as far as I can see.
Tom

peterh5322 · Feb 8, 2003

With the Ward Leonard 10EEs, you can employ a "divide and conquer" approach.

There is one overall wiring diagram (almost impossible to figure out) and there are three smaller, completely independent diagrams, all contained on the one wiring diagram page, EE-3216.

Monarch calls these small wiring diagrams "elementary". Which is about right. You divide the machine into these three (elementary) areas, and then you get each one to work properly, in turn.

The thing to remember about this machine, or about its immediate successors, is the main contactor coil is operated from the ac line, so it is either a 230 volt or a 460 volt ac coil, whereas the other contactors are operated from the 115 volt dc exciter (Ward Leonard) or from an auxiliary rectifier (WiaD and Modular), so these are all 115 volt dc coils.

The Ward Leonard machine varies the shunt field of the generator in order to vary the spindle motor's armature voltage (and series field) in order to go from rest to "base speed", and then it reduces the spindle motor's shunt field, by reducing the output from the exciter, in order to go from base speed to maximum speed.

The WiaD and Modular machines certainly drive the spindle motor in essentially the same way, but there are separate rectifiers for this purpose on these machines, and, obviously, no motor, generator, nor exciter.

tom h · Feb 8, 2003

Peter
Thanks for the input. Help me out here on the Ward Leonard version. Where is the contactor coil located and when should it be energized.
I am getting about 19vdc from the exciter and I have checked everybodys brushes and they all seem funcitonal. Is there a switch that engages or turns on the exciter to get it to put out? or is this indicative of a problem with the exciter itself? The gen runs fine but not much else except the low voltage out of the exciter. Any suggestions. I am hoping that I can find a rat turd stuck in a contactor but I have filed all the ones I can find with no success.
thanks to all
tom

peterh5322 · Feb 9, 2003

The main contactor is on the very back of the headstock. It has a red "RESET" bottom protruding from the cover.

This contactor is activated when you press "START MOTOR-GENERATOR" and is deactivated whenever you press "STOP" or a spindle motor overload occurs.

The exciter should put out 115 volts dc, when it is run at 3450 rpm.

The exciter is a compound-wound machine, just as are all the other dc machines in the 10EE.

I vaguely recall that there are some special tricks necessary to get the exciter going if it lacked enough self-magnetism.

Probably a search of the archives would turn up that procedure.

tom h · Feb 9, 2003

Peter

Thanks for the advice. I think that the exciter is the first place to start working. I will look for data about jump starting the exciter and check the resistors, windings, and brushes for continuity. One curious thing I have noticed is that the schemaic shows just 2 wires from the exciter and this machine has the two wires to E1 and E2 plus a third wire L1 (I think)that goes into the generator. Any clues as to what that is all about?
Tom

peterh5322 · Feb 9, 2003

Member ole.steen described this process in part of his post on resurrecting a Marshall Plan 10EE.

"I found the lathe in a sorry state under a pile of junk at a used machine shop here in Oslo in '76. It did not run, and the owner had called on 3 different electricians who had all given up on figuring out the M-G system. There were no documents with the machine. I bought it for the equivalent of $500.

"After a lot of tracing I found out that the exiter did not produce any voltage, it appearantly had lost all remnant magnetism during storage. A brief shorting with a pocket knife made it come to life."

peterh5322 · Feb 9, 2003

Re: the third wire, L1, from the exciter ...

The machine schematic does indeed show only two wires (E2 and E1) coming from the exciter.

However, E2 is directly (and immediately) connected to terminal GF1 (as well as to many other terminals).

Perhaps in your specific case, E2 was routed directly to the generator, rather than going through the terminal block.

Otherwise, E2 is also routed to numerous other places in the control panel, as E2 is the common terminal of the series field subsystem.

Now, L1 is the designation for a line voltage, and I can't see where (or why) a wire with this identification would be routed from the exciter to the generator.

Cal Haines · Feb 9, 2003

Tom,

E2 is sort of the ground for controls, that's why it connects to other terminals. The exciter provides all DC voltage for the controls, so if you are not getting rated voltage from the exciter, nothing will work.

My machine was built 11/1943. I've crawled through most of the schematic. The symbology is very quaint, but the circuit is really pretty simple. The schematic on the door is actually two copies of the same thing. The one in the upper right corner is a functional diagram, the main diagram shows all the connections.

Cal

tom h · Feb 10, 2003

Dear Friends
Thanks for your help.
The beast is alive. All the major system function nicely.
I found a rat had gnawed through one of the exciter field windings. Maybe it was a field mouse? Only thing now, the exciter voltage is up to 127vdc. This may drop when i make a good connection (i've just got the field jumpered very loosely) otherwise is there a variable resistor in there (looks like one on the schematic)? Now all I need is a tool holder and a chuck and I can go to work.
thanks again for the helpful posts and the diagram. Saved me a lot of head scratching.
Tom

peterh5322 · Feb 10, 2003

127 volts is good, as the spec is 115 volts when driven at 3450 rpm.

rimcanyon · Feb 11, 2003

The variable resistor is right below the headstock. It is pretty large, you can't
miss it if you have the end covers off.
The resistor is actuated by the aluminum knob near the lever that selects the gearbox speed range. There is a chain and sprocket
used to rotate the resistor.

That resistor is actually pretty unusual, it
has two ranges, one to control the armature
voltage for low speed adjustment, and the other which is used to lower the field voltage (and keep the armature voltage constant) for high speed adjustment.

Good luck getting it to run.

peterh5322 · Feb 11, 2003

The rheostat is a special dual gang type with special tapers, and tapers which are essentially the inverse of each other.

The wiring diagram states "Ohmite Tandem Rheostat, A 1925, Specification 5739".

The successor models (WiaD and Modular) use precisely the same concept, except that 2 watt potentiometers are used instead of the huge rheostats, and the pots have no significant loading, and hence dissipate little (or no) power.

tom h · Feb 11, 2003

Thanks Neighbors,

The question was about a resistor in the excilter field winding. Peter's information that the 127v was ok makes this moot. The variable speed unit and dc motor work fine, as do the contactors for reversing. Except that the unit won't turn in the forward direction unless I poke the contactor closed. Based on the schematic I think that I can trace this fairly easily. One simple question. Currently when the direction switch is moved towards the tailstock (cw) the spindle goes in reverse. My intition tells me this is backwards but if it is how they come I won't reverse the drum leads.
Thanks
Tom

Rene · Apr 3, 2003

Mine is a 1951 10EE with a Reliance Electric MG set that is all original except for the motor brushes and the 2000ohm resistor. I have to turn the headstock drumswitch clockwise for the spindle to go on reverse. Although it feels counter-intuitive, I think it is the norm for this machine.

peterh5322 · Apr 3, 2003

Perhaps it seems counterintuitive, but the drum switch being moved towards the spindle (counterclockwise on the 10EE) is consistent with the carriage moving towards the spindle when on power feed, whereas the drum switch being moved away from the spindle (clockwise on the 10EE) is consistent with the carriage moving away from the spindle when on power feed.

On machines which have a combination leadscrew/power feed shaft, things get really weird, as a reverser is interposed between the change gears and the leadscrew.

At least the 10EE has independent leadscrews and power feeds (the "manufacturing" 10EE has no leadscrew at all, only the power feed).

peterh5322 · Apr 3, 2003

Tom,

If you're in need of some help to get your wartime 10EE going, I'm just 15 miles up the coast from you.

Peter.

Rene · Apr 3, 2003

Come on down and check out my shop (mess as the boss, wife, puts it)Peter. Got some cold ones at all times.

peterh5322 · Apr 3, 2003

Thanks for your very kind offer, Rene.

It seems that the Monterey Bay area (as well as "the other Bay Area" ... S.F.) is a hotbed of 10EE activity.

If I could figure out how to send an e-mail off-List, directly to a subscriber, then we could exchange particulars and make the appropriate arrangements.

Peter.

1943 Electrical Problems

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