1949 Manufacturing Lathe Followed me Home today
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    Default 1949 Manufacturing Lathe Followed me Home today

    I've always liked Monarch's manufacturing lathes, finally found a complete one in good condition about 10 miles away. It is a 1949 MG with power turret and cross slide with rear toolpost, 4000 RPM. More pictures to follow once I have it in the garage. After loading and unloading it today, I let it sit in the driveway overnight, since there is a slight ramp going into the garage, and I will need to find a good winch point, probably need to install a masonry anchor (new garage was just built, so this is the first time I have brought in a 10EE). My little Bobcat trailer has pulled home its share of machines, perfect for a 10EE.

    img_1138.jpg

    img_1136.jpg

    img_1139.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I've always liked Monarch's manufacturing lathes, finally found a complete one in good condition about 10 miles away. It is a 1949 MG with power turret and cross slide with rear toolpost, 4000 RPM.
    And here I am messing with an Emco Hex, "grafted on", mere 5/8" sockets, (well .. at least there's ton of Hardinge tooling..) and hand capstan?

    I will need to find a good winch point, probably need to install a masonry anchor
    Don't do that.

    Make a hole at or barely above sill level, far back wall, that you can plug. Holesaw, piece of capped PCV DWV, soon done. Then all you need inside is left-right fairleads. Two threaded redhead anchors, about a foot apart, put the bolts in when needed. Only. Those prevent a side-angle pull from messing up the wall is all. Your bedroom it is not.

    Fab a pair of uber hooks... or use an I-beam cut-off. Outside, back of the space, spread the load across at least a foot of the edge of the slab and/or footer.

    Treat any "concrete block" as if it was wet tissue paper. It has less than zero strength. It's the SLAB you want.

    With a length of chain you now have your anchor to be used from inside the space, can reach clear down the driveway, and there's more room for the puller as you bring stuff closer-in.

    "Plan B" - out back or wherever.. drive heavy steel pin at an angle, tie top or the lead one to the base of a SECOND steel pin several feet back, OR two well-back in a Vee ... also at a back angle. Beach sand you might need a dozen or so, each wing of the vee, but this is what JF works.

    Either way, NOW you have a deadman anchor that won't just pop a chunk out of your floor slab.

    Done with plan A, plug the hole until next time.

    Done with Plan B, sledge the pins left-right, pull those out of the ground and aside for next time.


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    Thermite, clearly you are not familiar with masonry walls as built to earthquake standards here in CA. 16” x 8” Speed blocks, cores filled with high strength concrete, no voids, #4 rebar horiz and vertically every 16”, 30” foundation with steel box beam, masonry anchors epoxied, 7” deep.

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    You would do well to toss that Harbor Freight Ratchet strap in the trash or use it to hold a trap down on the way to the dump, but not to move machinery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Thermite, clearly you are not familiar with masonry walls as built to earthquake standards here in CA. 16” x 8” Speed blocks, cores filled with high strength concrete, no voids, #4 rebar horiz and vertically every 16”, 30” foundation with steel box beam, masonry anchors epoxied, 7” deep.
    "Clearly" I'm familiar enough to FAIL that optimistic marketing hype in a Belvoir Minute!

    Earthquakes are dynamic critters. VERY!! They could GIVE a s**t about piled-up masonry and #4 re-bar.

    You'd be safer in a sea-freight container with guy wires. They bounce and recover better!



    Whats UNDER your place? Pull up your soils geology. It's free and online.
    Which rock, from what era, on which sub-plate?

    Not that I'd have to bother failing California's corner-cutting ideas of "Earthquake" anything.

    Loma Prieta failed plenty of "optimists".
    Interesting week.

    I WAS on the San Brunos. Nary a crack in the walls. My office in Burlingame? Shifted four inches on the foundations. Legs sheared off office desks, every stick of furniture toppled but one.

    The brand-new Novell server and its CDC Wren IV RAID that I had just put online the day before! I had bungee corded it into a strong corner by a column! Worked fine 'til the Best "Ferrups" ran out of juice!

    We were fortunate, even so.

    Remember the highway collapse and corpses in crushed cars?

    "Earthquake resistant" my ass. Steam rail era timber trestle of 1870's wudda stood that. Foolish design of that highway was "prettier" .. but never had the ghost of a chance.

    There ARE better ways than either...



    Don't side-load the "speed blocks".

    Even if they were anchored into the San Brunos on deep steel piles and could stand your modest load a hundred times over - somebody will grumble it "isn't in their plan".

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    I like it. Guy buys lathe, loads it up , brings it home no drama, no bs. Thats a "practical machinist"
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan from Oakland View Post
    You would do well to toss that Harbor Freight Ratchet strap in the trash or use it to hold a trap down on the way to the dump, but not to move machinery.
    They work great. I have moved probably 40 machines (once bought a San Jose high school metal shop) using HF ratchet straps. The only purpose of that small strap is to hold the door panel in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    They work great. I have moved probably 40 machines (once bought a San Jose high school metal shop) using HF ratchet straps. The only purpose of that small strap is to hold the door panel in place.
    I use a ton of them. Once. At half their rated load. Then cut them up and use them to tie stuff to the hand-trucks (three).

    Same again the H-F lifting straps. Half rated load. Once. Then one-quarter.
    Then they become but sharp-corner-padding. More serious work, I have three tubs of chain, (cheaper to buy that way) plenty of kit to fit each link-size.

    Night and day difference, proper US made, US spec lifting strap from an H-F one.
    Priced accordingly. What one uses as CHEAPER than undue risk, too!
    But only when serious money and/or "other-than-just-me" risk be on the dance-card.

    Single-handed working, I can count on the habits of a lifetime to NOT be where my bod is at-risk. Deep habits of the right sort, you become an OLD rigger, never having been a bold one!

    Moving a 6,000 lb John Tann Bankers Anti-Arc diamond safe one go. Pro rigger (Baltimore's EI Kane) lead was a Brother former US Army Corps of Engineers LT.
    Wooden scotch block shattered, top of a metal ramp. He reflexively jumped in FRONT of it to stop it!

    I one-arm lifted his young ass bodily out of the way as that heavy safe moseyed down-ramp and directly through the wall, other side of the hallway. "scotched' its skates on the debris, tilted, but recovered, took a break.

    He was ROTC. Not Belvoir.
    Been a grenade, I'd have been on it, HE'd have been ejecting.
    Different training. Deep-wired. Very.

    Been a Hudson High School grad?
    He'd have been the guy selling the both of us life Insurance policies!
    Better-dressed, shod, and driving a nicer car, too!

    But actually making less money!

    Not ALL West-Point ring-knockers make General.
    They just THINK they have!


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    Nice going!. Did the hand lever collet closer come with it? Looks like it has the upper end cover for the version that's anchored to, well, the upper end cover.

    BTW I think we can stipulate that Dave knows what he's doing in moving these machines :-)

    David

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    Congrats on purchase.

    I really like a power fed turret tailstock, but not so much for production. I really like it for drilling. The TS being heavier than a regular TS, no key like with a quill in a regular ts, so you can lock down tools hard and rigid. Plus the power feed while drilling. You can drill any size you want and not have drills or drill chuck slip.

    Plus the added bonus of turret head holding a variety of tools . . . Just rotate to what you want to use.

    By coincidence I had just watched a little vid on one this week. Not too elaborate, and was thinking I want to find a little more info on it. A 1960 version though:
    1960 Monarch 10EE Manufacturing (turret) Lathe w/Hydraulic Turret - YouTube

    It was on my mind because with my new 10ee purchase, I have 3 lathes now. And long term, my current shop, I really should devote floor space to two lathes. A Monarch Series 61 which I feel I will absolutely keep, the 10ee, and a South Bend 16 which has a two speed power fed turret TS.

    For drilling, I'd hate to give up the power fed TS. Was toying with the idea adding a turret or power fed TS to either the Series 61 or the 10ee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    BTW I think we can stipulate that Dave knows what he's doing in moving these machines :-)

    David
    S'truth. He does indeed.

    Dif'rent school, here. Family bizness as to some dam' General or another forever wanting half the very world moved from wherever it was day before yesterday to wherever his OP Plan needed it to be by yesterday afternoon.

    Knew Mac Jones didn't ACT like no Quartermaster.

    Never knowed he was second-generation hard-core CAVALRY 'til I saw his obit.

    THEN it all made sense.

    Morton Jones Obituary (2010) - Austin, TX - Austin American-Statesman

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    Today I got it into the garage and put a new power cord on it, started the MG, wrong direction, fixed that, then tried the spindle. Started second try, and at first speed control was not working, then I could hear a relay click in the DC control box (probably first time in 30 years), and it started working.

    However, spindle forward and reverse are incorrect (lever left should rotate counter-clockwise, but it does the opposite. I’m not sure it is just a simple case of rewiring the reverse switch, because the DC control box is also working backwards. I.e. the rheostat controls reverse speeds, and forward speed is very slow.

    Where to start? Polarity must be wrong, but where should I look first? This lathe has been sitting untouched for 30 years. The prior owner told me he bought it at a metal recycler in Salinas, but it was too big a project for him. He did not touch the electricals. The metal recycler said it came from an estate in Santa Cruz, two brothers bought a lot of machinery and put it in tunnels dug into the Santa Cruz mountains, where it sat unused for a long time. So at some point it was probably running, but did the polarity problem exist then?

    Its too late to check anything tonight, but tomorrow I plan on pulling the cover off the MG control box and checking the exciter, field and armature voltages. Will report what I find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    However, spindle forward and reverse are incorrect (lever left should rotate counter-clockwise, but it does the opposite. I’m not sure it is just a simple case of rewiring the reverse switch, because the DC control box is also working backwards. I.e. the rheostat controls reverse speeds, and forward speed is very slow.
    That particular combination strongly suggests it MIGHT have exactly ONE "major" thing wrong with it.

    Brush-holder plate timing, final-drive motor.

    Check that first. Set for min-spark, FWD running, no-load. That's for longest brush life @ best power. Find REV is only 10% to 15% slower, also @ "no load". They are ordinarily just that close. Equal balance can be set, but the NEED for it is rare, and neither direction then gains best wear-life off brush or commutator metal.

    BOTH suffer. Which is what static timing by "finding" alignment with an eternal transformer will give one, BTW.

    Best results, timing needs to be set "hot and live", and it is not a time to be one iota careless of "stick and rectumfry" Dinosaurian Current.

    Safe practice for-sure. Powerco "lineman" double-gloving wise.

    Not hard. Order the goods online. Inner and outer are widely stocked:

    Safety Supplies, Industrial Supplies, PPE and MHE - IndustrialSafety.com

    They have competition.

    Or at least triple-up on the cheap and local with Latex or nitrile inner, tilesetters fabric-in Neoprene next. Pigskin puncture-proofer outer.

    But don't stop there! There are BOLD DC techs. There are OLD DC techs.

    There are NO "old, bold" DC techs.

    This f**ker has lethal Voltages all over it.

    DC never learnt to take prisoners as AC can do. No "zero cross". No reversal to throw cramped muscles back OFF.

    Stick. Fry. ...... stink. Don't even ask.

    Next place to look is worn-dodgy FWD main contactor swapped in either the Motor Switch or at the actuator coils only - so as to "use up" the ordinarily unworn REV contactor's metal, delaying rebuild or replacement for decades of extra life.

    A "production" lathe as balls to the walls collet-runner might have been able to run ten years, never once NEED reverse at all. Maybe longer.

    "etc"

    All covered in the usual place. "Right here. On PM"

    Parts can be had. Cheaply, even.

    It's an MG. Blacksmith-tough.

    They didn't get to be living legends by accident.

    Good hunting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    Nice going!. Did the hand lever collet closer come with it? Looks like it has the upper end cover for the version that's anchored to, well, the upper end cover.

    BTW I think we can stipulate that Dave knows what he's doing in moving these machines :-)

    David

    Thanks Dave. I got a lot of experience buying 10EE's from Al Sharon in Sonora then transporting them home to Salinas. I bought at least three machines from him, and lots of parts.

    The machine did not come with the collet closer, but I have a spare and plan on installing it. One thing it came with that kind of surprised me is a collet closer rack. I thought collet closer racks were for hand wheel-style collet closers, and lever-operated collet closers stayed on the machine.

    -Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    That particular combination strongly suggests it MIGHT have exactly ONE "major" thing wrong with it.

    Brush-holder plate timing, final-drive motor.

    Check that first. Set for min-spark, FWD running, no-load. That's for longest brush life @ best power. Find REV is only 10% to 15% slower, also @ "no load". They are ordinarily just that close. Equal balance can be set, but the NEED for it is rare, and neither direction then gains best wear-life off brush or commutator metal.
    Good idea, probably right on. There were some used brushes in the box of parts that came with the lathe, so its almost a red finger.

    Good suggestions on safe electrical work, I will do my best not to get fried.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Next place to look is worn-dodgy FWD main contactor swapped in either the Motor Switch or at the actuator coils only - so as to "use up" the ordinarily unworn REV contactor's metal, delaying rebuild or replacement for decades of extra life.
    Thanks, will check those out also.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    It's an MG. Blacksmith-tough.

    They didn't get to be living legends by accident.

    Good hunting!
    My first 10EE was a 43 MG machine, but I sold it 25 yrs ago, so I am looking forward to working on another. One thing I noticed is that this machine seems to be a lot quieter than I remember the 43 being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Good idea, probably right on. There were some used brushes in the box of parts that came with the lathe, so its almost a red finger.
    A "not cracked" brush-holder has your name on it if need be. They can be monkey-patched, but a crack is the main reason they drift about.
    Good suggestions on safe electrical work, I will do my best not to get fried.
    PROPER gloves are cheap one-time if you but aside them for the purpose, don't go mixing concrete or patching asphalt shingle roofing and ruin their protective capability. They also serve as REMINDERS that serious business is in work. That part is the bestest.

    sold it 25 yrs ago, so I am looking forward to working on another. One thing I noticed is that this machine seems to be a lot quieter than I remember the 43 being.
    LOL! Not really it ain't! I think we are "on the same codger page" in that claim!
    If that was you, and not your grand-dad in the photos?

    You don't HEAR as well as you did 25 years ago!!!

    Meanwhile, I need a damned Sound Pressure Level Meter to tell the difference!

    Not just age. 101st Airborne Division Rear, Div arty 175 mm tube fire-mission I was not prepared for "too close"..

    FORTUNATELY . El Cheapo SPL meters are well under fifty bucks, these days.

    Not what I used to have to pay the Danes for B&K's best lab-grade goods at four time what my BMW sedan had cost me, same year (1971?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Today I got it into the garage and put a new power cord on it, started the MG, wrong direction, fixed that, then tried the spindle. Started second try, and at first speed control was not working, then I could hear a relay click in the DC control box (probably first time in 30 years), and it started working.

    However, spindle forward and reverse are incorrect (lever left should rotate counter-clockwise, but it does the opposite. I’m not sure it is just a simple case of rewiring the reverse switch, because the DC control box is also working backwards. I.e. the rheostat controls reverse speeds, and forward speed is very slow.

    Where to start? Polarity must be wrong, but where should I look first?...
    I don't see a Variable Reverse Speed Control (VRSC) box on the back, so if the forward and reverse speeds aren't about the same, it's probably brush timing.

    You probably already know this but: Regarding the spindle not going in the right direction, it's possibile is that someone thought that the control was backwards and "fixed" it. I can't tell you how many people have complained here that the spindle was turning the wrong direction, when in fact it was working as designed. Check the wire tags on terminals C2 and C3, see if they've been swapped.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I don't see a Variable Reverse Speed Control (VRSC) box on the back, so if the forward and reverse speeds aren't about the same, it's probably brush timing.

    You probably already know this but: Regarding the spindle not going in the right direction, it's possibile is that someone thought that the control was backwards and "fixed" it. I can't tell you how many people have complained here that the spindle was turning the wrong direction, when in fact it was working as designed. Check the wire tags on terminals C2 and C3, see if they've been swapped.

    Cal
    Thanks Cal, will check. Since the motor speed control pot controls the reverse spindle speed, what does that tell you? i.e., is it possible for brush timing to be off enough to cause it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Thanks Cal, will check. Since the motor speed control pot controls the reverse spindle speed, what does that tell you? i.e., is it possible for brush timing to be off enough to cause it?
    WHEN .. there is a VRSC, the motor speed control pot CAN be "substituted for".. such that the setting in the VRSC applies instead.

    The ones we have photos of have been external. But PM has not seen very many "production" 10EE.

    IF a production lathe found it useful, the same function can be implemented in an internal location. It could use a slide-adjstable variable resistor. It doesn't HAVE to even be "variable".

    Your lathe COULD have such a circuit. Just not physically packaged nor located where we expect it to be.

    Camera on a "selfie stick" and let the detective games begin!


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    The MG wiring diagram I have is for a 43 Round Dial w/ piggyback exciter, dwg. # EE-3216. Is that also correct for the '49 square dial MG? The motor is the same, large frame Reliance 3HP.

    All the wiring is normal, no need to speculate about strange rewiring.

    Here are some photos of the machine, more to follow.

    img_1145.jpg

    img_1146.jpg

    In the photo above, there is a round bar attached to the side of the cross slide. I've never seen one like it, but I noticed that on the turret bottom, just opposite the round bar, there is a plate which projects down. I can see how a part would fit in there to attach the turret to the saddle, allowing you to use the carriage handwheel to position the turret. That is pure speculation... Trying to position the turret right now takes a lot of pushing, very hard to move on the tailstock ways, even with the clamps backed way off.

    img_1147.jpg


    The turret clamps to the bed using a pair of ratchet wrenches attached to the nuts, as shown above. It is missing one stop fixture like the ones shown above on the end of the turret.

    img_1148.jpg


    img_1149.jpg


    The turret takes 1" tooling, which I need to acquire. First job for this machine will be to complete the steady rest finger adjusters for Sneebot's steady rest casting.

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