1949 Manufacturing Lathe Followed me Home today

rimcanyon · Apr 15, 2021

I've always liked Monarch's manufacturing lathes, finally found a complete one in good condition about 10 miles away. It is a 1949 MG with power turret and cross slide with rear toolpost, 4000 RPM. More pictures to follow once I have it in the garage. After loading and unloading it today, I let it sit in the driveway overnight, since there is a slight ramp going into the garage, and I will need to find a good winch point, probably need to install a masonry anchor (new garage was just built, so this is the first time I have brought in a 10EE). My little Bobcat trailer has pulled home its share of machines, perfect for a 10EE.

rimcanyon · Apr 16, 2021

Thermite, clearly you are not familiar with masonry walls as built to earthquake standards here in CA. 16” x 8” Speed blocks, cores filled with high strength concrete, no voids, #4 rebar horiz and vertically every 16”, 30” foundation with steel box beam, masonry anchors epoxied, 7” deep.

Dan from Oakland · Apr 16, 2021

You would do well to toss that Harbor Freight Ratchet strap in the trash or use it to hold a trap down on the way to the dump, but not to move machinery.

bob · Apr 16, 2021

I like it. Guy buys lathe, loads it up , brings it home no drama, no bs. Thats a "practical machinist"
Bob

rimcanyon · Apr 16, 2021

Dan from Oakland said:
You would do well to toss that Harbor Freight Ratchet strap in the trash or use it to hold a trap down on the way to the dump, but not to move machinery.

They work great. I have moved probably 40 machines (once bought a San Jose high school metal shop) using HF ratchet straps. The only purpose of that small strap is to hold the door panel in place.

old_dave · Apr 16, 2021

Nice going!. Did the hand lever collet closer come with it? Looks like it has the upper end cover for the version that's anchored to, well, the upper end cover.

BTW I think we can stipulate that Dave knows what he's doing in moving these machines :-)

David

texasgeartrain · Apr 16, 2021

Congrats on purchase.

I really like a power fed turret tailstock, but not so much for production. I really like it for drilling. The TS being heavier than a regular TS, no key like with a quill in a regular ts, so you can lock down tools hard and rigid. Plus the power feed while drilling. You can drill any size you want and not have drills or drill chuck slip.

Plus the added bonus of turret head holding a variety of tools . . . Just rotate to what you want to use.

By coincidence I had just watched a little vid on one this week. Not too elaborate, and was thinking I want to find a little more info on it. A 1960 version though:
1960 Monarch 10EE Manufacturing (turret) Lathe w/Hydraulic Turret - YouTube

It was on my mind because with my new 10ee purchase, I have 3 lathes now. And long term, my current shop, I really should devote floor space to two lathes. A Monarch Series 61 which I feel I will absolutely keep, the 10ee, and a South Bend 16 which has a two speed power fed turret TS.

For drilling, I'd hate to give up the power fed TS. Was toying with the idea adding a turret or power fed TS to either the Series 61 or the 10ee.

rimcanyon · Apr 16, 2021

Today I got it into the garage and put a new power cord on it, started the MG, wrong direction, fixed that, then tried the spindle. Started second try, and at first speed control was not working, then I could hear a relay click in the DC control box (probably first time in 30 years), and it started working.

However, spindle forward and reverse are incorrect (lever left should rotate counter-clockwise, but it does the opposite. I’m not sure it is just a simple case of rewiring the reverse switch, because the DC control box is also working backwards. I.e. the rheostat controls reverse speeds, and forward speed is very slow.

Where to start? Polarity must be wrong, but where should I look first? This lathe has been sitting untouched for 30 years. The prior owner told me he bought it at a metal recycler in Salinas, but it was too big a project for him. He did not touch the electricals. The metal recycler said it came from an estate in Santa Cruz, two brothers bought a lot of machinery and put it in tunnels dug into the Santa Cruz mountains, where it sat unused for a long time. So at some point it was probably running, but did the polarity problem exist then?

Its too late to check anything tonight, but tomorrow I plan on pulling the cover off the MG control box and checking the exciter, field and armature voltages. Will report what I find.

rimcanyon · Apr 16, 2021

old_dave said:
Nice going!. Did the hand lever collet closer come with it? Looks like it has the upper end cover for the version that's anchored to, well, the upper end cover.

BTW I think we can stipulate that Dave knows what he's doing in moving these machines :-)

David

Thanks Dave. I got a lot of experience buying 10EE's from Al Sharon in Sonora then transporting them home to Salinas. I bought at least three machines from him, and lots of parts.

The machine did not come with the collet closer, but I have a spare and plan on installing it. One thing it came with that kind of surprised me is a collet closer rack. I thought collet closer racks were for hand wheel-style collet closers, and lever-operated collet closers stayed on the machine.

-Dave

rimcanyon · Apr 16, 2021

thermite said:
That particular combination strongly suggests it MIGHT have exactly ONE "major" thing wrong with it.

Brush-holder plate timing, final-drive motor.

Check that first. Set for min-spark, FWD running, no-load. That's for longest brush life @ best power. Find REV is only 10% to 15% slower, also @ "no load". They are ordinarily just that close. Equal balance can be set, but the NEED for it is rare, and neither direction then gains best wear-life off brush or commutator metal.

Good idea, probably right on. There were some used brushes in the box of parts that came with the lathe, so its almost a red finger.

Good suggestions on safe electrical work, I will do my best not to get fried.

thermite said:
Next place to look is worn-dodgy FWD main contactor swapped in either the Motor Switch or at the actuator coils only - so as to "use up" the ordinarily unworn REV contactor's metal, delaying rebuild or replacement for decades of extra life.

Thanks, will check those out also.

thermite said:
It's an MG. Blacksmith-tough.

They didn't get to be living legends by accident.

Good hunting!

My first 10EE was a 43 MG machine, but I sold it 25 yrs ago, so I am looking forward to working on another. One thing I noticed is that this machine seems to be a lot quieter than I remember the 43 being. :codger:

Cal Haines · Apr 17, 2021

rimcanyon said:
Today I got it into the garage and put a new power cord on it, started the MG, wrong direction, fixed that, then tried the spindle. Started second try, and at first speed control was not working, then I could hear a relay click in the DC control box (probably first time in 30 years), and it started working.

However, spindle forward and reverse are incorrect (lever left should rotate counter-clockwise, but it does the opposite. I’m not sure it is just a simple case of rewiring the reverse switch, because the DC control box is also working backwards. I.e. the rheostat controls reverse speeds, and forward speed is very slow.

Where to start? Polarity must be wrong, but where should I look first?...

I don't see a Variable Reverse Speed Control (VRSC) box on the back, so if the forward and reverse speeds aren't about the same, it's probably brush timing.

You probably already know this but: Regarding the spindle not going in the right direction, it's possibile is that someone thought that the control was backwards and "fixed" it. I can't tell you how many people have complained here that the spindle was turning the wrong direction, when in fact it was working as designed. Check the wire tags on terminals C2 and C3, see if they've been swapped.

Cal

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

Cal Haines said:
I don't see a Variable Reverse Speed Control (VRSC) box on the back, so if the forward and reverse speeds aren't about the same, it's probably brush timing.

You probably already know this but: Regarding the spindle not going in the right direction, it's possibile is that someone thought that the control was backwards and "fixed" it. I can't tell you how many people have complained here that the spindle was turning the wrong direction, when in fact it was working as designed. Check the wire tags on terminals C2 and C3, see if they've been swapped.

Cal

Thanks Cal, will check. Since the motor speed control pot controls the reverse spindle speed, what does that tell you? i.e., is it possible for brush timing to be off enough to cause it?

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

The MG wiring diagram I have is for a 43 Round Dial w/ piggyback exciter, dwg. # EE-3216. Is that also correct for the '49 square dial MG? The motor is the same, large frame Reliance 3HP.

All the wiring is normal, no need to speculate about strange rewiring.

Here are some photos of the machine, more to follow.

In the photo above, there is a round bar attached to the side of the cross slide. I've never seen one like it, but I noticed that on the turret bottom, just opposite the round bar, there is a plate which projects down. I can see how a part would fit in there to attach the turret to the saddle, allowing you to use the carriage handwheel to position the turret. That is pure speculation... Trying to position the turret right now takes a lot of pushing, very hard to move on the tailstock ways, even with the clamps backed way off.

The turret clamps to the bed using a pair of ratchet wrenches attached to the nuts, as shown above. It is missing one stop fixture like the ones shown above on the end of the turret.

The turret takes 1" tooling, which I need to acquire. First job for this machine will be to complete the steady rest finger adjusters for Sneebot's steady rest casting.

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

More photos:

The collet closer did not come with the machine, but this is a better use for it than on the 59.

What are the wires for that are wrapped in elect. tape, at the top left?

All the belts are loose. It has been a really long time since the machine last ran.

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

thermite said:
SWAG they were meant to vanish into a conduit, end-up as power to the illumination lamp in the MG-prime-mover starter switch, down by yer left knee?

Look again. Each wire pair has a black and white. The black wires go to the 110V transformer, the white to the MG running light, but it looks decidedly un-Monarch to have a copper crimped splice wrapped with some electrical tape. What was the original splice like?

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

DC electric box and motor brush photos. The contact that is sitting askew is as it was when I opened it. I'm surprised that there seems to be no stop to prevent rotation of the contact assemblies, and I am not sure if that one contact was even making contact. The contacts look pretty good.

The DC motor brushes look different from the brushes used in the MG. I have a dim memory that on the 43, all the brushes were the same for exciter, generator and DC motor.

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

more photos:

Cal Haines · Apr 17, 2021

rimcanyon said:
The MG wiring diagram I have is for a 43 Round Dial w/ piggyback exciter, dwg. # EE-3216. Is that also correct for the '49 square dial MG? The motor is the same, large frame Reliance 3HP.

All the wiring is normal, no need to speculate about strange rewiring.
...

Dave,

EE-3216 is correct for your machine as far as I can tell. Unless there's a version out there that includes the coolant pump, but I've never seen the coolant pump wiring show up on any version of the diagram. The only other square-dial MG diagrams that I'm aware for are the ELSR version (EE-3218) and the ELSR+VRSC (EE-3220) version. I someone knows of others, I would love to hear about it.

Apart from the wiring in the AC contactor compartment, the wiring looks vintage to me. If the taped up wires in there are connected to the little transformer, then yes, they're for the Start button pilot light. If the machine is wired for 440 you'll have to change the transformer or the pilot light will be pretty dim. Your transformer does not appear to be vintage.

rimcanyon said:
DC electric box and motor brush photos. The contact that is sitting askew is as it was when I opened it. I'm surprised that there seems to be no stop to prevent rotation of the contact assemblies, and I am not sure if that one contact was even making contact. The contacts look pretty good.

The DC motor brushes look different from the brushes used in the MG. I have a dim memory that on the 43, all the brushes were the same for exciter, generator and DC motor.

View attachment 319139

...

View attachment 319137

...

The big relay on the right side of the pair is the Reverse contactor. The contact arm on its left, which is rotated so that it doesn't contact the opposing contact, connects E1-2 to GR1 and in turn applies power generator's field. Without it, the motor shouldn't run in reverse at all, since the generator won't be putting out much, if any, current to the spindle motor's armature. If that isn't the contactor that's closing when you move the spindle control to the right, someone has probably swapped C2 and C3, either at the DC panel or the headstock switch.

You say that the speed control pot controls the motor in reverse. What, if anything, happens in forward? You'll want to look carefully at the wire tags on the terminals at the bottom of the DC panel and on the MG terminal panel and see if any are out of place.

I'll e-mail you a copy of my color-coded version of EE-3216; it's a lot easier to trace things on that version.

As I'm sure you know, you can buy brushes from Monarch. The Helwig Carbon R1017 brushes that Monarch sold me for my 1943 machine are the same ones used for your square-dial, Reliance model 14D1, 3HP DC motor. My 1943 round-dial's motor doesn't have a model number marked on the data plate, but it's also a frame 14-T Reliance motor; instead it's marked with and E/S number: 161-EC-15. All three brush sets for my 1943 machine are different.

You'll want to replace the three resistors in the upper-right corner of the DC panel. Those are a common failure item on square-dials (the exciter being the only other). See this link: Start up problem with m/G machine?

It looks like you have part of a Monarch factory lever-operated 5C collet closer, but I don't see the lever anywhere.

Cal

rimcanyon · Apr 17, 2021

Cal Haines said:
You say that the speed control pot controls the motor in reverse. What, if anything, happens in forward? You'll want to look carefully at the wire tags on the terminals at the bottom of the DC panel and on the MG terminal panel and see if any are out of place.[/QUOTE

Cal, I have the issue sorted. Turned out to be miswired armature wires to the motor, in the small box on the motor. Here is a photo before I swapped armature leads:

After swapping, the lathe runs smooth and accelerates in fwd. as expected. I took it to 4000 RPM and it was very cool to see it make it. The last few RPM took a few seconds, it kind of creeped upwards from 3800 to 4000. Deceleration worked great, so the braking resistors are working. I tried the back gear, and it worked but it complained a bit at the high end. Anyway, enough electrical testing for now, I plan to work on the mechanical end of things now.

Cal Haines said:

I'll e-mail you a copy of my color-coded version of EE-3216; it's a lot easier to trace things on that version.

Click to expand...

Thanks Cal, much appreciated.

Cal Haines said:

As I'm sure you know, you can buy brushes from Monarch. The Helwig Carbon R1017 brushes that Monarch sold me for my 1943 machine are the same ones used for your square-dial, Reliance model 14D1, 3HP DC motor. My 1943 round-dial's motor doesn't have a model number marked on the data plate, but it's also a frame 14-T Reliance motor; instead it's marked with and E/S number: 161-EC-15. All three brush sets for my 1943 machine are different.

Click to expand...

I plan to do that Monday, also order a manual and inquire about way wipes and parts for the turret.

Cal Haines said:

You'll want to replace the three resistors in the upper-right corner of the DC panel. Those are a common failure item on square-dials (the exciter being the only other). See this link: Start up problem with m/G machine?

It looks like you have part of a Monarch factory lever-operated 5C collet closer, but I don't see the lever anywhere.

Cal

Click to expand...

I will look for replacement resistors too, thanks for the suggestion. The 5C collet closer was missing, but I had one available, so it will get installed on the machine.

Dave

Cal Haines · Apr 18, 2021

thermite said:
EXACT OEM-value resistors CAN be had, too. I posted a source in another thread some years ago. Or Go ogle can find them again.

Downside is the resistive value matches exactly, the wattage is good...but the size and shape may not exactly match OEM!

...

And the problem with using a 3000 Ohm plus a 200 Ohm resistor (which happen to be the OEM size), vs. two 1600 Ohm resistors, is? Unless I'm missing something here, the "resistive value matches exactly". Oh, and the wattage of the suggested replacements isn't a problem either.

Cal

1949 Manufacturing Lathe Followed me Home today

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Attachments

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Similar threads