1950 60 series 14inch info - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Thanks for that info, I guess at first I just assumed that would be the only thing I'd have to do. I'm starting to get why that won't work. So that has to he done, the motor starter, and the smaller transformers? What does he mean by contactors? And the fact that they don't exist anymore creates a problem also I guess. Maybe it is better if I buy it to use a step up transformer and leave existing electrical alone. That will depend on price I guess. They are firm on price, I figure at least 1000.00 on a used 3 jaw, used aloris, 3 toolholders, and live center, I don't want to end up with 5000.00 in this thing. It's a want now more than a need. Any ballpark idea what a transformer would cost? I feel like wiring that might be more straight forward. Maybe I'm wrong. Just trying to weigh options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joebass View Post
    Thanks for that info, I guess at first I just assumed that would be the only thing I'd have to do. I'm starting to get why that won't work. So that has to he done, the motor starter, and the smaller transformers? What does he mean by contactors? And the fact that they don't exist anymore creates a problem also I guess. Maybe it is better if I buy it to use a step up transformer and leave existing electrical alone. That will depend on price I guess. They are firm on price, I figure at least 1000.00 on a used 3 jaw, used aloris, 3 toolholders, and live center, I don't want to end up with 5000.00 in this thing. It's a want now more than a need. Any ballpark idea what a transformer would cost? I feel like wiring that might be more straight forward. Maybe I'm wrong. Just trying to weigh options.
    Relays and he means that you cannot change the coils out to the lower voltage instead of having to just change out the whole relay.

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  4. #23
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    We're also making assumptions the original Monarch electrical cabinet components are intact. I would not assume that. Maybe they are maybe aren't.

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    I think the point here is that it shouldn't be so difficult to change the input to 240 3P. and shouldn't require a step up transformer for the whole lathe if the main drive motor is marked for dual voltage, (240 included). contactors are available, even if not from Monarch, but you should be able to use the ones on the machine, perhaps with a transformer for the coil voltage. as above poster noted, the electrics may not be original also. (not familiar with the units used here, some have a coil that can be swapped for one of a different voltage also.)

    other adaptations, such as "heaters" which are current sensing elements that prevent over current situations, much like circuit breakers, need to be tailored to the proper voltage to work, as well.

    maybe Monarch person just didn't want to deal with someone who doesn't know much, sorry, I may be all wrong here, but if you don't know what a contactor is, well maybe you ARE in over your head.

    if you don't need it, well I'm the last one to dissuade you, but we can't learn ya EVERYTHING on here. you have to decide if you are ready to jump in. if you don't think you can figure it out on your own, maybe it's not for you.

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    Of course I can figure it out, I've ran all the conduit, sub panels, and circuits in this and my last shop, both 240v 3 phase, I've put together a new 200 amp service in my new shop, that's been inspected. I've hooked up all three phase equipment to date that I've bought, I've rewired motors from 110v to 220v single. I'd have no problem just changing the leads, as if it were a drill press or bridgeport
    (for some reason, I just assumed I could do this before I started reading and thinking about it). Just because I've never worked on anything like this before doesn't mean I couldn't handle it. That why I'm asking questions BEFORE I buy it or decide to dig into it.

    You are correct that we shouldn't take for granted its been tampered with already, this place its in now only has 240v, if I'm reading the spec sheet right, it was shipped set at 220v. It has been at at least two of this company's locations in the last 65 years, also.

    I'm being cautious because I don't want to end up with 5,000.00 in this and a project getting it running. I have a full time fab shop, I have two lathes now, I don't need it but I could use a bigger lathe, and Ive been watching for 2 years now for something to come up, Ive had my heart set on a Monarch, or a Mori copy. I feel like I can find something already tooled and ready to run on my voltage for close to that. But if someone tells me I can get this running for under 500.00, I'm in.
    I need to make an educated decision on Mon,

  7. #26
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    Lathe spec sheet
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screenshot_20161007-223934.jpg  

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebass View Post
    Of course I can figure it out
    or "I'm way over my head" from post 16?

  9. #28
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    Meaning it's new territory, said wish a little sarcasm. I guess you just want to argue.

  10. #29
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    Let me expand on my thoughts. Assuming everything is intact as shipped by Monarch just because the stuff is defunct and Monarch can't supply it doesn't mean *you* can't get parts. But of course there is no guarantee. When I got my Milwaukee 2H it was wired 440 from the Air Force. In that case I priced new and used motor starters and also opened it up and looked up the parts I needed. I was actually able to swap the coil and heaters I found on ebay for < $40 in a box that has been defunct for decades.

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  12. #30
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    "It's wired 480v now through a step up transformer. The electrician didn't know why and we couldn't dig deep enough to find the motor tag. Coolant pump motor is labeled for 220/440v. Drom68 sent me the original spec sheet and it states main 7 1/2hp motor is dual voltage 220/440v. I only have 240v 3 phase at my shop. What would be involved in changing to lower voltage? Just swapping leads?"

    Monarch usually wires the motor direct, meaning the connections are inside the motor's end bell. This allows Monarch to save considerable space which would otherwise be dedicated to the motor's connection box ("pecker head").

    The electrical print will give you all necessary information for 230 volts and 460 volts, but the motor controller is usually sized for 460 volts on a machine which was originally made for 460 volts, and is usually sized for 230 volts on a machine which was originally made for 230 volts.

    However, that print will give you all the information you will need for rewiring to 230 volts, although the wire size could be too small, and the motor controller could be one NEMA Size too small. You'll have to make an assessment on that issue when you perform the installation.

    As to the leads to the motor, these usually go directly from the motor controller to the windings, so opening up the motor and effecting a change there is likely to be required.

    The single sheet schematic is usually applicable to any Series machine from 5 to 20 HP. It is a very simple machine, electrically speaking, but very complex machine, mechanically speaking.

    Well worth the effort to do it right.

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  14. #31
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    It's ok if you do not have full knowledge of starters, heaters, and contacts. That doesn't mean you can't learn or figure out how to get the monarch running on 240. It really is a simple matter you have going here.

    Any part in your electrical cabinet can be replaced; it just might not be with original equipment. For example Square D might not make the same model monarch used in 1950. There are possibly sources for for say the heaters. If you can find a motor repair, sometimes they have older parts. A long with other places like ohiomike mentioned.

    Don't worry about getting in over your head, You're really not.

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    Additional considerations ...

    The machine usually has a reversing magnetic motor starter, often Cutler-Hammer, but others have been found, too.

    The coils (there are two, one for each direction) are usually 115 volts, and the machine usually has a small 230/460 to 115 control transformer for the purpose of supplying the control system and often a convenience receptacle for supplying to test tools.

    If the control transformer is indeed 230/460 to 115, then you are almost home free as the starter's coils will not need to be changed.

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  18. #33
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    I do have a transformer that was left with the junk, the previous owner of my shop left. He said it was a step up, but who knows. I had to replace evey bit of wiring in all 10, 000 square feet. Light switches hooked up wrong, breakers triple tapped, overloaded breakers, etc.
    I went there today to take pictures, as I took the covers off a while back and there are no labels.

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    Best I could do on the pics, it's in a storage area, on a skid, against a wall, with crap all around it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20161008_104741.jpg   20161008_104730.jpg  

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    "As to the leads to the motor, these usually go directly from the motor controller to the windings, so opening up the motor and effecting a change there is likely to be required."

    While the motor is open for a voltage change, it would be a good time for refreshing the motor's ball bearing grease.

    Some motors use sealed ball bearings, whereas others use externally lubricated ball bearings.

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  22. #36
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    Here is the "stacked" style Square D reversing magnetic starter on my August 1946 Monarch CW16 X 102 - in its dedicated steel enclosure on the back or rear of head stock

    The contacts are closed by the coils, which are merely electro magnets, controlled via the push button station on the front of the machine. The two individual contactors are mechanically interlocked so they cannot both be "on" at the same time

    The heaters are merely thermal overloads (matched to motor current or amps) that are in series in the coil circuit - an "overload" will open one or both and the motor will stop because there is no longer any magnetism to hold the contacts closed

    At the very bottom of photo, the red flex conduit heads in to head stock leg to motor - carrying the LINE wires to the motor's terminal box
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0272-info.jpg  

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  24. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    Additional considerations ...



    If the control transformer is indeed 230/460 to 115, then you are almost home free as the starter's coils will not need to be changed.


    Good point here. I have a lodge and Shipley that came with a 240/460 motor. The control panel was also dual voltage. All I had to do was resize the heaters. I wouldn't think that monarch would put a dual voltage motor on a machine without the control panel being dual voltage.. But 1950 was a long time ago so anything could have been changed since then.

    If I were you I wouldn't worry about the electrical. Just do what you have to do once it's in your garage. And you might possibly be able to use the uncertainty of the electrical for your bargaining.
    Last edited by Andy221; 10-08-2016 at 04:36 PM.

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  26. #38
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    Thanks guys, very helpful and informative posts. Much appreciated.

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    Default who's arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by joebass View Post
    Meaning it's new territory, said wish a little sarcasm. I guess you just want to argue.
    no, believe me, if I just wanted to argue, I wouldn't be holding back!

    I also wouldn't be trying to provide useful info, such as in #24 above. (look, I said TRYING ok?)

    just sayin', the the "whats a contactor" / "of corse I can figure it out" thing is a bit annoying. maybe I'm just pissed it's not goin' in MY shop!

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  29. #40
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    I get it man. No hard feelings on my end.

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