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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000EE-Monarch View Post
    >> THIS.. has been "question enough" it is actually on my RTWL ('Round Tuit Wish List) to TEST.
    ....
    >> My concern, given the manner in which DC Drive not only switch, but also monitor themselves, is whether, and to what extent,
    >> if-even the "generated" leg off an RPC degrades their performance, stability, or capability to regulate well vs all three legs
    >> of the same quality. Or near-as-dammit, the Phase-Perfect.

    Good question and valid concern. If running the SCR drive off a rotary phase converter, I would connect the incoming 1 phase to the legs that power the logic of the drive, to keep the power going there more consistent. Also, probably a good idea to tune the accel and decel rates conservatively to limit peak loading. On decel, the energy is returned back to the grid (phase converter in this case), so the generated leg voltage would go up and the phase converter motor would try to speed up, limited by the 60hz mains which it would be backfeeding. I have yet to try it.... On the bright side, the drive we put in this lathe is extremely oversized, it's rated at 50hp and 500V or so (have to double check), and SCR drives are pretty tough.

    >> Have you BEEN running a 3-Phase-only DC Drive off an RPC already? And if so, am I being overly pessimistic?

    I have not, been using "real" three phase. I could scare up an idler motor and simulate operation off a phase converter if there's enough interest... I know a guy that's running a large Mori Seiki CNC lathe with an SCR DC drive off a phase converter and so far it's been OK. But yeah, if the intent is to run it off single phase with a RPC, probably a good idea to test drive it on that kind of setup see how she does.
    Control/Logic power is already about as self-reliantly stable and well-protected as can be, espcially if the "usual" optioning to insure that is taken advantage of.

    As to load and speed regulation?

    I'm confident it could be set "tolerant enough" to run, even with a lower margin of oversize. Sanity check is most 10EE are but 3 to 5 HP, whilst the most common 3-Phase-only DC Drives start at 10 HP capable and go up.

    So even without a 50 HP, there'd still be about 100% or better reserve.

    Now. tachogenerator control, it should be stable as Gibralter.

    Internal "IR" feedback sensing is the open question. There's a possibility of a bit of oscillation, one Phase to the next. Even that should be resolvable by de-tuning the "sensitivity" parameter.

    The only thing I am missing to be certain is an actual "Major Maker" or reasonably common and popular 3-P only DC Drive with which to test. And for-sure one still in current new production, not "unobtanium", fossilized or still-working.

    Even if the test unit itself is used goods and an older Rev level, any same or newer drive should be as good or better - just as my used Eurotherm-SSD single-phase DC Drives have proven by the NEW Parker goods applied by others.

    My KB's were all bought NEW, but those are for 180 VDC world, as the four 10EE 3 HP motors aren't but the half of the Dinosaur Current critters under roof, here.

    There's a tribe of 180 VDC Reliance RPM III laying about and mostly biting ankles reminding me they are unemployed and too stiff-necked proud to apply for benefits as well!

    Reliance. Old Skewl ones. Made before the acquisition. Not treadmill junk nor Baldor's bitch.

    Proud bastards will starve to death before ever they'll beg or go on the dole!

    Maybe that's why we get-on so well?


  2. #22
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    Alex, thanks for the answers!
    I need to work that I/M gearbox, rebuilt 10EE headstock, NOS compound, etc., into this deal somehow...


    Sounds like it would be in use quicker than my Series 60 took. I'm mostly intent on refurbishing the bijur pumps, changing metering units & major cleaning/flushing. I have a spare taper (not that yours needs it) and your 13EE taper is visually in MUCH cleaner/better/complete shape than mine was...

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    >> I need to work that I/M gearbox, rebuilt 10EE headstock, NOS compound, etc., into this deal somehow...

    Hmmm... don't tempt me lol.

    >> I have a spare taper (not that yours needs it) and your 13EE taper is visually in MUCH cleaner/better/complete shape than mine was...

    This one will need the bed clamp for the taper att.

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    >> So even without a 50 HP, there'd still be about 100% or better reserve.

    Here's the data plate of the drive. Obviously it's current and voltage limited in the parameters to match the motor specs but it does has a wide operating range :-)

    drivedataplate.jpg

    >> Now. tachogenerator control, it should be stable as Gibralter.

    That would be a fun upgrade, the drive has an input for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000EE-Monarch View Post
    >> Now. tachogenerator control, it should be stable as Gibralter.

    That would be a fun upgrade, the drive has an input for that.
    Needs a complete Field Regulator functionality as well.

    Otherwise - we've confirmed this on ones as do NOT - as the crossover into Field Weakening passes? The tiny-little analog mind of - for example, a 514C-16 SSD - goes "Oh S**t, the load is over-running! Starts backing-down Armature power preparing to inject reversing power!

    Data plate shot you posted hints not just a naked bridge, but managed field, so it may "be there:". The manual for it must be in the archives - I didn't find it just now in with the current lineup.

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    >> Needs a complete Field Regulator functionality as well.

    This has a field control with a fair number of parameters to tweak it's behavior. And I do have the manual of the drive.

    Here's a video of some gear shifting:

    YouTube

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000EE-Monarch View Post
    >> Needs a complete Field Regulator functionality as well.

    This has a field control with a fair number of parameters to tweak it's behavior. And I do have the manual of the drive.

    Here's a video of some gear shifting:

    YouTube
    Lovely!

    'Been sayin' for years, not much need of a PM write-up on adapting a 3-Phase only packaged DC drives.

    Just RTFM, wire and forget.

    Looks great!

    NOW .. IF these 3-P-only critters, say in a mere 10 HP 3-Phase DC drive... WILL run well off an RPC?

    Could was a 3 HP MG-era 10EE that likes a 7.5 HP RPC might get by with a 5 HP RPC idler?

    The Single-Phase SSD's waste only 55 WATTS at full 6 HP gallop. 3-P-only drives needing no output choke should be more efficient overall, yet.

    The Ward-Leonard system is smooth, but pays a price for that in higher conversion losses.
    Last edited by thermite; 12-02-2019 at 02:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000EE-Monarch View Post
    >> So even without a 50 HP, there'd still be about 100% or better reserve.

    Here's the data plate of the drive. Obviously it's current and voltage limited in the parameters to match the motor specs but it does has a wide operating range :-)

    drivedataplate.jpg

    >> Now. tachogenerator control, it should be stable as Gibralter.

    That would be a fun upgrade, the drive has an input for that.
    More than just the ONE input, it seems.

    I've now found a possibly good used 10HP "cousin" to your drive and downloaded a manual. These appear to be very good drives with plenty of well-documented options. One I'm looking at is a flexible devil, but seems to have been optimized for HOISTS. Among other features, it can store 7 pre-set speeds (Octal value, 3 bits?)

    Even the smaller one will accept any one of analog tachogenerator, digital shaft resolver slew, or impulse train - as from a photocell or mag-prox toothed wheel - for RPM management in lieu of internal IR sensing

    I cannot find the manual for your series to compare with the smaller one - both being obsolete.

    Do you happen to have your manual as a .pdf file, or have a link to one that is already downloadable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Alex, thanks for the answers!
    I need to work that I/M gearbox, rebuilt 10EE headstock, NOS compound, etc., into this deal somehow...


    Sounds like it would be in use quicker than my Series 60 took. I'm mostly intent on refurbishing the bijur pumps, changing metering units & major cleaning/flushing. I have a spare taper (not that yours needs it) and your 13EE taper is visually in MUCH cleaner/better/complete shape than mine was...
    Far as I can see, your only concern with the drive used here is that if you wish to mess with its settings, the manual for it can require a LOT of reading!

    Seems well worth it, though.

    Especially if you choose to NOT "mess" with what is already working!

    Have a watch of that video.

    I'm off looking into building a mini-duplicate, "round dial" former-MG 10EE, 3 HP "large frame" Reliance as load-motor.

    Guess that classes as a "vote of confidence"?


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    I read through all the posts about this iconic old Monarch. I currently have a 1946 10EE in very nice condition with the original MG setup and I've owned several other Monarchs. A question comes to mind about this 13" lathe having 20 HP with only 15.5 max swing? What was this thing designed to do? That seems like a lot of ponies to pull such a light of a load.
    spaeth

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    Looks like it sold on eBay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Looks like it sold on eBay.
    Link:
    Monarch 13EE 15x54" Precision Toolroom Lathe, Variable speed (1000EE, 10EE) | eBay

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    Yep, like I said, sold on eBay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaeth View Post
    I read through all the posts about this iconic old Monarch. I currently have a 1946 10EE in very nice condition with the original MG setup and I've owned several other Monarchs. A question comes to mind about this 13" lathe having 20 HP with only 15.5 max swing? What was this thing designed to do? That seems like a lot of ponies to pull such a light of a load.
    spaeth
    Any electrically variable speed, yah need 2 (DC) to 4 (AC) times the "HP to be demanded" in "nominal" reserve for really good STABILITY under partial loads. Torque/HP/RPM equation is a playful b***h, y'see.

    Torque to the tool-tip comes out of constant RESERVE if yah GOT that reserve, drops RPM if yah do not. Which messes up yer plans SFM and surface finish wise whilst in the cut. Unwelcome effects, those. So yah provide deep pockets of reserve.

    Monarch variable speed lathes did "stability" about as good as ever was, "all manual" era. Deep pockets in the Engine Room. Stiff frame to apply it well.

    That 3 HP "large frame" Reliance in an MG-era 10EE? Torkymudda! Can briefly push a good 4 times its nominal torque when it has to do. Most work? You'd be demanding only about a horse and a half of it - sometimes much less. So it is stable. Very.

    NB: Might surprise a few folks just how DAMNED tough some turning jobs can git to be before they get fat on the OD as well. "Back in the day" the only affordable Carbides were Brute Force and Bloody Ignorance negative rake. Helluva drag, those produced "shoving" chip off, bulldozer style, instead of slicing at it.

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  18. #35
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    In another thread about a Lehman toolroom lathe, it was mentioned it was designed to take advantage of the then new ceramic tooling. Often being successful cutting exotic materials with exotic tooling is maintaining cutting speed under load. The later Monarch ee series have speed compensation circuits, and devices to maintain exact cutting speeds on varying diameters.
    George Washington Machine had a 1000ee in the 90s, that one had the hydraulic tailstock that could also maintain tail center pressure when the work expands from the heat of cutting.
    I spotted another 1000ee on a airforce base tour, it looked brand new, I couldn't find out what it was used for.

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    The thing that irritates Americans the most is, slow wifi!

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I spotted another 1000ee on a airforce base tour, it looked brand new, I couldn't find out what it was used for.
    Probably a good thing.

    Some paranoid General might have wanted you locked up in a bunker cut-off from all communications if you had found out it was used for.... nothing at all important. Or even nothing at all. Period. It never WAS the toilet seats that cost $600. It was the system of waste sittin' ON 'em rather than goin' PAST them.

    COMSAT labs had three of the LeBlond Heavy Duty with the special 25-millionths Timkens. Guy trying to hire me said the only thing he knew they'd ever actually been used for in three years since rigged-in, brand new was..

    Making fancy knobs for some of the staff's Hurst pony-car shifters.

    COMSAT contracted ever' damned thing OUT, never made nuthin' they could avoid.

    Prolly about "the money". Contract machinist at the metal can SEE waste or dam' foolishness, bitch about it. Bean-counter, thousand miles away? One number is as good as any other number.

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    I am really digging in my memory of strange Monarch sightings, I think the first one of this type is a model 71, had a large motor generator. The castings such as the compound were more old style and clunky, where the later 1000ee was much more refined, but had that headstock design, and high speed ball bearing spindle.
    I was told the lathes were used at the Hanford nuclear site for machining the high nickle work hardening alloys often used out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I am really digging in my memory of strange Monarch sightings, I think the first one of this type is a model 71, had a large motor generator. The castings such as the compound were more old style and clunky, where the later 1000ee was much more refined, but had that headstock design, and high speed ball bearing spindle.
    I was told the lathes were used at the Hanford nuclear site for machining the high nickle work hardening alloys often used out there.
    I was under the impression that it was the opposite, the 13EE became the 1000EE then progressed to the series 71?
    There was a page somewhere here on PM with a "Missile Master" series 71 it showed a big EE turning a nose cone for some small missile. The 1000EE and series 71 may have been contemporaries with different features, the time frame was about right for both late 50's early 60's

    Steve

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    Rumor has it that a 13EE has a 2”+ spindle bore?
    Any truth to that?


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