1954 Monarch 10ee MG RPC issues
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    Default 1954 Monarch 10ee MG RPC issues

    Hello,

    Recently obtained 1954 unit with MG setup.

    After moving it into suitable quarters I was confronted with supplying it with correct power.

    I initially used a RPC rated at 5HP connected to a 20 amps circuit.

    It ran the MG unit. After a few minutes, I rotated the speed knob and watched the spindle turn. But as I increased the speed the 20 amp breaker tripped.

    I moved a 8HP RPC from another location and this one had a thirty amps set up.

    I plugged this one into a thirty amp inlet run by a thirty amps breaker.

    After cranking the RPC I pushed the green starter button only to be given as a result sparking and flickering at the reset red button at the back of the headstock.

    Is this because my RPC is incorrectly wired to the lathe.

    Would be grateful for your comments.

    Also, next to the red reset button, there is a black switch for which I have yet to figure out its purpose.

    Henri
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 11-04-2019 at 08:41 PM. Reason: fix title

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    Go back to the original RPC and ensure that it still powers the MG up correctly. If it does then check it's earthing properly and if it is then check the wiring arrangement on the bigger one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter. View Post
    Go back to the original RPC and ensure that it still powers the MG up correctly. If it does then check it's earthing properly and if it is then check the wiring arrangement on the bigger one.
    Thank you Peter, will do and report results.

    Henri

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    Hello Peter,

    I connected the previous RPC and the M/G unit ran well.

    I was tempted to raise the speed for the spindle, but decided not to do so, to avoid tripping that 20 amps breaker again.

    Now I am just starring at my 8HP Westinghouse motor, wondering how to match it to the smaller RPC.

    Is it just a matter of setting the order of the leads to match those of the smaller RPC?

    Apologize for my lack of knowledge, I was a desk jockey for too many years before I retired.

    Henri

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    Quote Originally Posted by henri View Post
    Hello Peter,

    I connected the previous RPC and the M/G unit ran well.

    I was tempted to raise the speed for the spindle, but decided not to do so, to avoid tripping that 20 amps breaker again.

    Now I am just starring at my 8HP Westinghouse motor, wondering how to match it to the smaller RPC.

    Is it just a matter of setting the order of the leads to match those of the smaller RPC?

    Apologize for my lack of knowledge, I was a desk jockey for too many years before I retired.

    Henri
    Your 8 HP is an odd size, BTW. Are you sure it is 8 HP, not 3 HP?.

    It would make more sense to FIX the control box on the 8 HP unit. New capacitors? Bum relay? Bad wiring or failing terminal? Nothing in there is all that expensive.

    If it really IS 8 HP, then properly restored to good health - can be dedicated to the 10EE and should do just fine. Otherwise, go find a 7 1/2 or 10 HP idler.

    That way you still have two RPC.

    A 10EE needs "about" 7 1/2 HP RPC idler, minimum, for "comfortable" operation, all speeds and loads.

    Be aware that while there is nothing exactly space-age-complicated anywhere in an MG 10EE, it DOES have lots of brushes that need to be renewed, commutators to clean-up, many wires and terminals, some switches, relays, resistors, and such that age and need attention ... but only every ten to seventy years or so!

    IOW - buy the manual from Monarch. Learn also from here on PM. Order a few parts such as brushes.

    Put it to rights.

    Once in good order, it stays in good order ....and for a very, very long time.

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    Thank you,

    Was lucky to find Carl’s post years back that gives good info on the size of the breaker recommended as well as the 10 gauge wires.

    The Westinghouse unit clearly indicates 8 eight HP.

    Runs beautifully but I have so far no way to confirm that it is putting out that quantity.

    At least, now, I understand that it is the correct amount of juice that will keep the 10ee operating.

    Am much further ahead than last week because of the help received so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henri View Post
    Thank you,

    Was lucky to find Carl’s post years back that gives good info on the size of the breaker recommended as well as the 10 gauge wires.

    The Westinghouse unit clearly indicates 8 eight HP.

    Runs beautifully but I have so far no way to confirm that it is putting out that quantity.

    At least, now, I understand that it is the correct amount of juice that will keep the 10ee operating.

    Am much further ahead than last week because of the help received so far.
    "Stone Soup party", the Monarch forum is. Folks bring whatever they have to add to the pot.

    Some of the best posts are from over a dozen years back, by now.

    Nobody who digs and reads goes hungry for very long at all.



    If the motor is sound, all windings equally good, a starting or balancing cap or two in the RPC starter/control may have gone over-age, a relay failed, or even just had a termination go wonky.

    Well worth seeing to. WELL worth. It's a near-perfect size match. Also one LESS heavy idler motor to be found and drug to-home!

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    If the RPC will start the machine on the 20A circuit, then it should be able to run at any speed. The motor/generator (MG) only draws about 12A at full power. The problem that you usually have with a 20A circuit is that the starting current to power up the MG is around 100A for about a second and that will often trip the breaker.

    Get a clamp-on ammeter and check the current on each phase, at idle, with the spindle running at minimum speed, and as you increase the speed. HF has an inexpensive unit that's good enough for what you need here (link). You shouldn't see over 12A on any phase. Also check the phase-to-phase voltages, make sure that they're fairly well balanced.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    If the RPC will start the machine on the 20A circuit, then it should be able to run at any speed. The motor/generator (MG) only draws about 12A at full power. The problem that you usually have with a 20A circuit is that the starting current to power up the MG is around 100A for about a second and that will often trip the breaker.

    Get a clamp-on ammeter and check the current on each phase, at idle, with the spindle running at minimum speed, and as you increase the speed. HF has an inexpensive unit that's good enough for what you need here (link). You shouldn't see over 12A on any phase. Also check the phase-to-phase voltages, make sure that they're fairly well balanced.

    Cal
    One minor nit... most low-end El Cheapo clamp ammeters -half of my four - are purely AC reading animals.

    Pay just a FEW dollars more - still not all that costly - you can get one (or two) that has the sensors that properly measure DC current as well.

    It will be handier, long-term use, and probably a better meter all-around too.

    4 meters worth.. of just the clamp-on type... I like to hook up ONCE, several meters at a go, read ALL the parameters, same test. They do not all have to be John Fluke's descendants.

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    Yep,

    I saw that posting years back as well. You guys put out lots of important information that helps owners of the older models like myself.

    Steve can no longer provide technical assistance on these older 10ee.

    It is all on you and lucky us you guys are still around to help.

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    Cal,

    Any idea what that rectangular black switch, next to the reset red button is for?

    Seems that if turned clockwise it activates something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henri View Post
    Cal,

    Any idea what that rectangular black switch, next to the reset red button is for?

    Seems that if turned clockwise it activates something.
    Checked the leads at the coolant pump?

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    That is it.

    Should have known.

    Thank you

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    henri, a couple pics of your EE would be nice if you have time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henri View Post
    That is it.

    Should have known.

    Thank you
    Well.. actually ... it seems an odd location for EITHER of the reset or coolant pump to me. There is space enough two different places both could have lived "operator side". And yet may.


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    Default Photo

    Only have one on file.

    Will add some more in the am. Was struggling with a vertigo episode today.

    I think the tag shows a figure 8.

    It is larger than the RPC that cranks up the lathe. But maybe I am wrong.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 60d2a479-bd3b-4c9d-b311-c37032b5a1ad.jpg   86999f8f-063a-43fa-964b-37a521ab0a02.jpg   92a4c5f5-2733-4a14-89a0-c30e3cb14bd9.jpg   077c0fd6-3e67-49c7-ae2a-80009a936364.jpg   07e59097-8427-4984-b4b2-f41e92ac9258.jpg  

    Last edited by henri; 11-06-2019 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default RPC size

    Thank you for having me focus on the possibility that my reading of eight might be a three.

    Seems more likely the harder I focus. That would explain the non start.



    QUOTE=thermite;3437849]Your 8 HP is an odd size, BTW. Are you sure it is 8 HP, not 3 HP?.

    It would make more sense to FIX the control box on the 8 HP unit. New capacitors? Bum relay? Bad wiring or failing terminal? Nothing in there is all that expensive.

    If it really IS 8 HP, then properly restored to good health - can be dedicated to the 10EE and should do just fine. Otherwise, go find a 7 1/2 or 10 HP idler.

    That way you still have two RPC.

    A 10EE needs "about" 7 1/2 HP RPC idler, minimum, for "comfortable" operation, all speeds and loads.

    Be aware that while there is nothing exactly space-age-complicated anywhere in an MG 10EE, it DOES have lots of brushes that need to be renewed, commutators to clean-up, many wires and terminals, some switches, relays, resistors, and such that age and need attention ... but only every ten to seventy years or so!

    IOW - buy the manual from Monarch. Learn also from here on PM. Order a few parts such as brushes.

    Put it to rights.

    Once in good order, it stays in good order ....and for a very, very long time.[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by henri View Post
    Thank you for having me focus on the possibility that my reading of eight might be a three.

    Seems more likely the harder I focus. That would explain the non start.
    It would help yah wipe the fossilized butterfly shit and Yak hair off it.



    But I think it IS an "8". Unusual is not the same as "non-existent" or some 'ere would be extinct!

    So the control box needs seen to...


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