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1959 10EE all the sudden not powering up?

Jaxian

Stainless
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Location
Santa Cruz
Hey guys, could use some advice on a problem that cropped with my 10EE the other day.

The machine is a 10EE 1959 with the WIAD. No coolant pump, no ELSR, no hydraulic pump. It is connected to 240v single phase. The machine is very original. Wires have been redone if they looked questionable but same size and grade when replaced so for all intents and purposes a completely original machine electrically. It has worked perfectly for years now and has never demonstrated any odd behavior or issues. It is in a clean temperature controlled area.

Normally I turn on the disconnect on the back of the machine to turn on the power. You can hear the fan turn on in the tube compartment end of the lathe. After a minute or so I hit the START button and it glows green and the machine is then operational. When done I hit the STOP button right below the START and the tubes all go out and the machine is off. The fan is still running until I turn off the disconnect power as I recall.

I went to use it the other day, it's been a few weeks but not very long. Turned on the disconnect, heard the fan spin up, waited a few minutes for the Time Delay tube to do it's thing and then hit the START button.

The machine just turned off. No pop, no delay like a fuse was blowing or a breaker was tripping, no smell, no sounds. Just press START and instantly quiet. I don't recall if the fan was still running after pressing. I cycled the disconnect switch on and off. I pressed the RESET button on the back of the headstock but the machine will not power up now. The green light in the START button never turns on. Also the fan which is normally always on is not running ever.

I started looking at the drawings and trying to trace where the power was stopping. It does get inside the machine. The DC cabinet on the headstock end is completely dead as far as I can tell.

There is power to the Tubes area just waving a chicken stick around to see if there is power. But the fan will not run.

If you look at the attached picture of the wire diagram I have power (120v) at B3 (yellow) at the START button. The other side of the button B1 is only showing like 15v. I expected there to be full 120v power at L2-1 (yellow) but it is only 11v on both sides of the STOP button. It looks like there should be 120v from L2 there.

From tracing the diagram it looks like the fuse at L2-2 should be at 120v (red). I can not find that fuse. I am not sure what O.L.I means. If that is a latching power circuit I would assume that it needs power there so when the START switch is pressed that circuit goes live and lets the power though, except there isn't any power.

I waved the chicken stick around both the fan wires B9 and 73, and also at the 6N060 Time Delay tube and it showed voltage at both. I check the voltage at 73,B9 with a meter to ground and only got 5v. Not surprised it can't turn the fan as the schematic show that being a 145v circuit.

So any help as to were the fuse is that in the red circle is located or ideas as to why the machine is all the sudden dead would be much appreciated. All five fuses I could find, 1 amp, 3 amp, 30 amp all seem to be good.

There was no electrical storms, no movement, no activity at all near the machine what would have caused anything that I can tell. Thanks guys.

Monarch 10EE schematic 001.jpg

EDIT: I have tried re-attching the picture a few different ways and sizes but it keeps auto resizing it and making it hard to read. Sorry about that.
 

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  • Monarch 10EE schematic 002.jpg
    Monarch 10EE schematic 002.jpg
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If the fan is not running you do not have power to the field anode transformer or the 75 ohm resistor going to the fan is bad.
 
Thanks for the heads up. The wires going to the 75ohm resistor are the original cloth covered type and look very crunchy. I will test or replace them.

Could this be the cause of the no start issue? The fan was running when I hit the START button and it shut down. The fan did turn off when that happened. I am not nearly good enough at reading wiring diagrams to be able to tell if that 75ohm resistor going dead could cause my issue.

Thanks for the information.
 
You need to check the voltage on that transformer first as I think you have something up stream that is your problem. That resistor will not cause your start problem it will only cause the fan to not run and nothing else.
 
There's a debug list in the manual that you might want to start. But at this point I would guess that the failure is either the control transformer out, fan gone or one of the fuses in the disconnect is out (assuming that the supply is still good). Here's that end of the circuit - I'd start by checking the voltage between 5 and B7

10ee_control_circuit.png
 
Forgive me for being a bit clueless here but I am not sure exactly where that 5 amp fuse and transformer are. I see the large shoe box size transformer in the base at center. Also there is a small one on the inside back wall opposite the DC control box by the motor but I do not see a transformer with a 5 amp fuse near it (or 5 amp fuse period). I must be overlooking it.

Is it by any chance the one shown in the red circle in my picture? I couldn't find it but did lose track of the wires as the solid conduit went into the headstock bottom after leaving the disconnect box. The conduit then comes back out of the headstock and goes to the START switch. It enters right where the RESET button on the outside back is but I couldn't see a plate or cover to remove to get at that area.
 
The transformer that I am talking about is behind the panel the tubes are mounted on. You also need to check the power coming in to that control transformer in and out. it is a small transformer located in the motor compartment opposite the dc control box.The fuse for that transformer may be in the compartment behind the headstock with the main contractor.

108169913.JfCTCjjQ.jpg
 
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That last picture was a great help. I realized I had never even known there was a panel there. I moved my machine into the shop against the wall, plugged it in and never had to touch it since then so never even knew that was there.

I still don't see a fuse but maybe that is what the RESET circuit breaker is for. I am guessing this thing must switch on when the external disconnect switch is turned on? If this is dead that would explain all the issues I have been having.

It looks like the power goes through here before going to the rest of the machine. I even see a wire marked 73 which is the one for the fan that stopped working.

Does this thing physically move? Like should I grab it and try to reset it like a breaker? That big bar moves but I didn't want to force anything. Thanks for the help.

20190604_162447.jpg

EDIT: That wire looming someone did looks pretty interesting, never seen it like that before. The previous owner I got it from did high end electrical test equipment repair and maintenance. Maybe that was his doing.
 
...

Does this thing physically move? Like should I grab it and try to reset it like a breaker? That big bar moves but I didn't want to force anything. Thanks for the help.

View attachment 258108
The red "Reset" button resets the thermal overload device, which is a thermally-operated switch that opens the coil circuit and keeps the AC contactor from operating. If the thermal overload isn't tripped, pushing the button does nothing, it feels dead. You can tell if it's tripped by checking for continuity between the single terminals directly beside the button, one on each side.

Cal
 
EDIT: That wire looming someone did looks pretty interesting, never seen it like that before. The previous owner I got it from did high end electrical test equipment repair and maintenance. Maybe that was his doing.

Pretty sure that's 100% original. Just the way it was done "in the day".

I think the fuse for the DC controls is in the DC panel under the headstock. A picture of yours would allow us to point it out.

If it helps:

10ee_WiaD_trouble_shooting.gif
 
Still troubleshooting this when I get breaks in work. Been using my fallback lathe to get little things done while I do. Luckily most stuff has been CNC right now.

So as expected the START switch never does get the Main Contactor to engage. I check the voltage at the switch and they appear to be what they should be, 120v at B3, 23v at B. I am admittedly out of my depth here.

So I kept tracing wires and the next stop point seemed to be the Time Delay tube. The voltage seemed right so I actually just sat there watching the contacts in the tube to see if they ever shut as they are supposed to. They never did. I tried pressing START button while watching the tube to see if maybe it needed that but again nothing happened.

So I figured the Time Delay tube was bad. I checked the voltages and was getting 120v on B2 and a weird like 13v on B1 on the other side of the tube. Checked at both the tube socket and at the Electronic Unit that is on the back of the tube compartment with all the wires going to it. Both showed the same voltages.

The B circuit which is supposed to be the heaters for the tube are at 23v. Bought and put in a new Time Delay tube 6NO60 (which apparently according to Amperites website means 6v Normally Open, 60 seconds). The exact same thing happens. Meaning nothing. Contacts never close so power never goes to the Main Contactor to trigger it.

A little stumped now. Was going to put voltage to the two legs of the tube to see if it worked. Maybe they sent me a bad one. No clue what to use to generate 6v AC, I guess a variable AC/DC power supply?

So is 23v the correct voltage for the B circuit tube heaters? I can't see where it shows the correct voltage for that on the wiring diagram. I thought it was supposed to be 6-12v according to the tube number itself but have no idea of the rules here for these things. I am assuming if Monarch specified that tube then it's correct. Just the 23v has me wondering.

It seems this might be something really basic that I am just missing because I am not very experienced at troubleshooting electrical.

So as it stands the power never gets out of the Main Contactor area shown in my picture above except as 120v to run the startup circuits.

P.S. No idea why the fan isn't working but then again looking at the wiring diagram I can't figure out why the Fan ever worked in the first place. Looks like it shouldn't have come on until the Main Contactor was close. One thing at a time I guess.

Thanks guys. Paul.
 
Still troubleshooting this when I get breaks in work. Been using my fallback lathe to get little things done while I do. Luckily most stuff has been CNC right now.

So as expected the START switch never does get the Main Contactor to engage. I check the voltage at the switch and they appear to be what they should be, 120v at B3, 23v at B. I am admittedly out of my depth here.

So I kept tracing wires and the next stop point seemed to be the Time Delay tube. The voltage seemed right so I actually just sat there watching the contacts in the tube to see if they ever shut as they are supposed to. They never did. I tried pressing START button while watching the tube to see if maybe it needed that but again nothing happened.

So I figured the Time Delay tube was bad. I checked the voltages and was getting 120v on B2 and a weird like 13v on B1 on the other side of the tube. Checked at both the tube socket and at the Electronic Unit that is on the back of the tube compartment with all the wires going to it. Both showed the same voltages.

The B circuit which is supposed to be the heaters for the tube are at 23v. Bought and put in a new Time Delay tube 6NO60 (which apparently according to Amperites website means 6v Normally Open, 60 seconds). The exact same thing happens. Meaning nothing. Contacts never close so power never goes to the Main Contactor to trigger it.

A little stumped now. Was going to put voltage to the two legs of the tube to see if it worked. Maybe they sent me a bad one. No clue what to use to generate 6v AC, I guess a variable AC/DC power supply?

So is 23v the correct voltage for the B circuit tube heaters? I can't see where it shows the correct voltage for that on the wiring diagram. I thought it was supposed to be 6-12v according to the tube number itself but have no idea of the rules here for these things. I am assuming if Monarch specified that tube then it's correct. Just the 23v has me wondering.

It seems this might be something really basic that I am just missing because I am not very experienced at troubleshooting electrical.

So as it stands the power never gets out of the Main Contactor area shown in my picture above except as 120v to run the startup circuits.

P.S. No idea why the fan isn't working but then again looking at the wiring diagram I can't figure out why the Fan ever worked in the first place. Looks like it shouldn't have come on until the Main Contactor was close. One thing at a time I guess.

Thanks guys. Paul.
You are not reading the voltage right as it is supposed to be 6.3 volts AC. You should have a green light on the start button if it is not burnt out if that came on before the problem occurred and it is not coming on now you do not have power on the transformer for the heaters on the tubes, on my schematic it is located right above the box that says NOMENCLATURE all the way to the right. You need to see if you are getting power to that transformer if not the time delay tube will never time out.
 
The green light in the START switch did work and was on when I clicked it and the lathe died that day. I have never seen it light up since then.

If the tube heater circuit B is at 23v doesn't that mean that the heater circuit is working somewhat even if the voltage is wrong? I would figure if the transformer was dead there would be no voltage.

I will try to find the correct transformer. The only ones I have found so far in a cursory look are the large shoebox sized one taking up the entire center of the base between the motor and tubes area. It is on the drawer that the tubes are on. If that one is toast I am assuming I am screwed as I would guess it's not fixable or able to replaced cost effectively.

And the smaller one that sits on the back wall right behind the motor. It is much smaller.

Where would I look physically in the machine for tube heater transformer?

My wiring diagrams seem to show a number of transformers but I have only found those two and neither seem powered when the Main Contactor is not engaged. Some must be as the 120v coming in from the Service is being changed to all kinds of different voltages. The four around the RESET button are at 11v. Lot's of other voltages too so I am assuming there are more. Or could resistors be changing all these voltages?
 
The green light in the START switch did work and was on when I clicked it and the lathe died that day. I have never seen it light up since then.

If the tube heater circuit B is at 23v doesn't that mean that the heater circuit is working somewhat even if the voltage is wrong? I would figure if the transformer was dead there would be no voltage.

I will try to find the correct transformer. The only ones I have found so far in a cursory look are the large shoebox sized one taking up the entire center of the base between the motor and tubes area. It is on the drawer that the tubes are on. If that one is toast I am assuming I am screwed as I would guess it's not fixable or able to replaced cost effectively.

And the smaller one that sits on the back wall right behind the motor. It is much smaller.

Where would I look physically in the machine for tube heater transformer?

My wiring diagrams seem to show a number of transformers but I have only found those two and neither seem powered when the Main Contactor is not engaged. Some must be as the 120v coming in from the Service is being changed to all kinds of different voltages. The four around the RESET button are at 11v. Lot's of other voltages too so I am assuming there are more. Or could resistors be changing all these voltages?
If your tube heater volts is 23 Volts then ALL your tubes are toast which I don't think is possible. If that green light is not coming on you are not getting power to that transformer. What kind of volt meter do you have? If it is a automatic ranging type then what you are reading is 23MV or 0.023 volts. There should be three+ transformers mounted behind the panel the smaller tubes are mounted on. I doubt that the LARGE Transformer is your problem. Another way to check for voltage on the secondary of the filament transformer is to see if the tubes are getting HOT if not you need to trace out the primary wires and see if they have 220vac on them which I think you do not have. You have to pull out the drawer to see the transformers I am talking about.
 
The multi meter is the standard physical type. I might be using it wrong to check these voltages though. Keep getting 23v going to ground.

So my water jet parts I was waiting for to start work on today got delayed so I had a chance to mess with the Monarch some more. I figured the parts I couldn't find must be inside here.

20190609_134643.jpg

I am sorry I was correct.

20190610_151526.jpg
20190610_152134.jpg

Super complex machines I am comfortable with. Electrical, not so much. Lots of this looks original. I know what all the parts are, except the Thyrite skateboard wheel looking things, but how they are interact has my head spinning.

Right now just doing a cursory inspection to find anything that looks blatantly burned or damaged. Nothing so far. But at least I found all the stuff on the wiring diagram I couldn't locate. :eek:

So more pictures of the stuff. More of the string wire loom stuff. Guess that was factory original. Looks like the previous owner just went in and replaced the wires that looked bad or damaged. Some look pretty crunchy. Guess I will get out the multi meter and start checking.

So more pictures.

20190610_152350.jpg
20190610_154046.jpg
 
The multi meter is the standard physical type. I might be using it wrong to check these voltages though. Keep getting 23v going to ground.

So my water jet parts I was waiting for to start work on today got delayed so I had a chance to mess with the Monarch some more. I figured the parts I couldn't find must be inside here.

View attachment 258554

I am sorry I was correct.

View attachment 258555
View attachment 258556

Super complex machines I am comfortable with. Electrical, not so much. Lots of this looks original. I know what all the parts are, except the Thyrite skateboard wheel looking things, but how they are interact has my head spinning.

Right now just doing a cursory inspection to find anything that looks blatantly burned or damaged. Nothing so far. But at least I found all the stuff on the wiring diagram I couldn't locate. :eek:

So more pictures of the stuff. More of the string wire loom stuff. Guess that was factory original. Looks like the previous owner just went in and replaced the wires that looked bad or damaged. Some look pretty crunchy. Guess I will get out the multi meter and start checking.

So more pictures.

View attachment 258557
View attachment 258558
Yep using it wrong as that 6.3 volts does not go to ground you have to check it to the other b wire. You may get 23v checking it that way which means nothing. Not all voltage reading are reference to ground.
 
Yeah, I checked across them like I do with L1,L2,L3 and it was 0v so assumed that wasn't correct so tried to ground.

Now of course the more sensible explanation is just that the transformer isn't actually getting any power.

Will continue to look upstream to see where the power stops and hopefully find my answer.

P.S. I know this is a HIGHLY contentious issue but what is a good all around quality multi meter for someone who doesn't use them enough to justify spending a ton on one? I assume some Fluke but saw a really bad review of the basic one online so a little gunshy.
 
So I was out checking voltages and trying to get the lay of land so to speak and oddly when measuring voltages across leads I was getting 0v readings. I could get weird voltages going to ground but I know that those numbers don't mean anything.

I made a little flow chart of where the power came in and where it went so I could work backwards as I mentioned. I ran across something that I thought was odd so figured I would mention it.

As I said before it doesn't appear there is any voltage going though any of the transformers. There is voltage in the machine as I can find 120v at many different spots plus those other lower voltages.

But if I would like try to measure between B/B and the schematic says it should be 6.3v it was 0v. Or the 2.5v, I think that's C and D it would be 0v.

So I check the L1-2 etc and they are also all 0v. I tried the L1 and L2 at the Electronic Unit bus bars or whatever you call the strips where all the wires go through eyelets like in the picture above.

L1 and L2 to ground were 120v. When I went L1 > L2 it was 0v. I thought it was supposed to be 240v like it is when I check at the wall. I figure maybe there is something keeping it from doing the bridging transformer thing or something after it enters the machine.

So I check at L1 and L2 at the Main Contactor where they come in from the disconnect on the back of the machine. Also 120v to ground and 0v across them. Again I figured maybe there was something weird. Only thing is the Filament Transformer (TR-5318) on the wiring schematic says it is expecting 240v input. Actually it has multiple taps from 200v to 250v it would appear. Looks like mine was tapped I believe 237v.

So just guessing I am being clueless again as to how it is supposed to work I unplugged the lathe and checked the wall socket. It was 120v to ground and 240v across L1/L2 just like I would expect. So between that socket and the Main Contactor input wires something weird is keeping it from being 240v. That only leaves the disconnect box. Assuming I am not completely missing how this works again.

That disconnect box is up against the wall and pulling the machine requires moving a lot of large things around so I have been avoiding it. Also it looks like a standard mechanical power disconnect box. Not like something with any fuses or breakers in it. And even if it did since both L1 and L2 are getting into the machine with 120v to ground it would seem like it is working. It's just not bridging to 240v like the machine says it wants.

Any insight in to this? Is it exactly as it should be and I need to look elsewhere or is there something to this not being able to get 240v in the machine by bridging L1 > L2?

Thanks for any help guys. Paul.
 
So I was out checking voltages and trying to get the lay of land so to speak and oddly when measuring voltages across leads I was getting 0v readings. I could get weird voltages going to ground but I know that those numbers don't mean anything.

I made a little flow chart of where the power came in and where it went so I could work backwards as I mentioned. I ran across something that I thought was odd so figured I would mention it.

As I said before it doesn't appear there is any voltage going though any of the transformers. There is voltage in the machine as I can find 120v at many different spots plus those other lower voltages.

But if I would like try to measure between B/B and the schematic says it should be 6.3v it was 0v. Or the 2.5v, I think that's C and D it would be 0v.

So I check the L1-2 etc and they are also all 0v. I tried the L1 and L2 at the Electronic Unit bus bars or whatever you call the strips where all the wires go through eyelets like in the picture above.

L1 and L2 to ground were 120v. When I went L1 > L2 it was 0v. I thought it was supposed to be 240v like it is when I check at the wall. I figure maybe there is something keeping it from doing the bridging transformer thing or something after it enters the machine.

So I check at L1 and L2 at the Main Contactor where they come in from the disconnect on the back of the machine. Also 120v to ground and 0v across them. Again I figured maybe there was something weird. Only thing is the Filament Transformer (TR-5318) on the wiring schematic says it is expecting 240v input. Actually it has multiple taps from 200v to 250v it would appear. Looks like mine was tapped I believe 237v.

So just guessing I am being clueless again as to how it is supposed to work I unplugged the lathe and checked the wall socket. It was 120v to ground and 240v across L1/L2 just like I would expect. So between that socket and the Main Contactor input wires something weird is keeping it from being 240v. That only leaves the disconnect box. Assuming I am not completely missing how this works again.

That disconnect box is up against the wall and pulling the machine requires moving a lot of large things around so I have been avoiding it. Also it looks like a standard mechanical power disconnect box. Not like something with any fuses or breakers in it. And even if it did since both L1 and L2 are getting into the machine with 120v to ground it would seem like it is working. It's just not bridging to 240v like the machine says it wants.

Any insight in to this? Is it exactly as it should be and I need to look elsewhere or is there something to this not being able to get 240v in the machine by bridging L1 > L2?

Thanks for any help guys. Paul.
You may have a wire in the cord that is bad you do need to check if you are getting 240v to the disconnect box if it is not getting out of the box it could be something in the box or the cord is bad.

After reading your post your problem is in the disconnect box most disconnect boxes have fuses in them and you have one of them blown. You do need to read the voltage from l1 to l2 and it need to be 240Vac
 








 
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