1959 10EE all the sudden not powering up? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    So I was out checking voltages and trying to get the lay of land so to speak and oddly when measuring voltages across leads I was getting 0v readings. I could get weird voltages going to ground but I know that those numbers don't mean anything.

    I made a little flow chart of where the power came in and where it went so I could work backwards as I mentioned. I ran across something that I thought was odd so figured I would mention it.

    As I said before it doesn't appear there is any voltage going though any of the transformers. There is voltage in the machine as I can find 120v at many different spots plus those other lower voltages.

    But if I would like try to measure between B/B and the schematic says it should be 6.3v it was 0v. Or the 2.5v, I think that's C and D it would be 0v.

    So I check the L1-2 etc and they are also all 0v. I tried the L1 and L2 at the Electronic Unit bus bars or whatever you call the strips where all the wires go through eyelets like in the picture above.

    L1 and L2 to ground were 120v. When I went L1 > L2 it was 0v. I thought it was supposed to be 240v like it is when I check at the wall. I figure maybe there is something keeping it from doing the bridging transformer thing or something after it enters the machine.

    So I check at L1 and L2 at the Main Contactor where they come in from the disconnect on the back of the machine. Also 120v to ground and 0v across them. Again I figured maybe there was something weird. Only thing is the Filament Transformer (TR-5318) on the wiring schematic says it is expecting 240v input. Actually it has multiple taps from 200v to 250v it would appear. Looks like mine was tapped I believe 237v.

    So just guessing I am being clueless again as to how it is supposed to work I unplugged the lathe and checked the wall socket. It was 120v to ground and 240v across L1/L2 just like I would expect. So between that socket and the Main Contactor input wires something weird is keeping it from being 240v. That only leaves the disconnect box. Assuming I am not completely missing how this works again.

    That disconnect box is up against the wall and pulling the machine requires moving a lot of large things around so I have been avoiding it. Also it looks like a standard mechanical power disconnect box. Not like something with any fuses or breakers in it. And even if it did since both L1 and L2 are getting into the machine with 120v to ground it would seem like it is working. It's just not bridging to 240v like the machine says it wants.

    Any insight in to this? Is it exactly as it should be and I need to look elsewhere or is there something to this not being able to get 240v in the machine by bridging L1 > L2?

    Thanks for any help guys. Paul.
    You may have a wire in the cord that is bad you do need to check if you are getting 240v to the disconnect box if it is not getting out of the box it could be something in the box or the cord is bad.

    After reading your post your problem is in the disconnect box most disconnect boxes have fuses in them and you have one of them blown. You do need to read the voltage from l1 to l2 and it need to be 240Vac

  2. #22
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    So my parts came in from the waterjet and I need to get back to work to earn some money but wanted to make one last stab for now as it seems we have it narrowed down.

    I must admit I couldn't see how it would be a fuse in the disconnect box because I was getting 120v on L1 and L2. I figured, "how would the voltage be getting to L2 if the fuse was blown?". So I carry a pallet jack over a Lagun to get it in that small corner where the 10EE is. Give myself a hernia jockeying it around and getting it away from the wall. I open up the disconnect box and find this. Nice call Labeeman, fuses in there.

    20190611_192850.jpg

    I check continuity, while hanging upside down over the back of the machine as there is no space to pull it farther out. Great fun. It shows the L2 fuse as blown. Hmmm. So how was the power getting to all the L2 circuits in the lathe? Was it coming in from the L1 side? I just don't know electrical stuff well enough. Would love some insight if you know. Amazingly Home Depot has these fuses in stock and I pick up a pair for $2.52. Pop them in and...

    20190611_204857.jpg

    Everything works again. All the speeds and functions and everything. I am very happy to say the least. I figure before I put it back I will take care of some of the crunchy wires and other bad looking stuff. With most of that done I put it back. I can still get to the last item that I would like some direction on fixing.

    I found this in the DC Control box.
    Reverse Contactor:
    20190612_001735.jpg

    Forward Contactor:
    20190612_001728.jpg

    So it all works but obviously not as well as it should. Plus that's trouble waiting to happen. I guess maybe I can just unscrew the hex head thing that isn't toasted on the right side and swap it? Unless they are easy to get.

    As to those black squares. What are they? Do I need to make them from scratch or can I just buy them. Looks like I might need screws too as they are melted a bit. Not sure how to get them out of there too as the screws will hit the side of the DC Control box but I assume the assembly can be completely removed.

    So thanks guys. I now know a whole lot more about my electrical system on the 10EE and it's working again. Please let me know if you know where I can get replacements for those burned items.

    Thanks again. Paul.

  3. #23
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    You were reading that 120V through the transformer in the machine as a voltmeter does not draw any power it will read 120v. You do not need to do any thing in the DC control box it looks good If it ain't broke don't fix it. The black squares are part of the arc suppression for those contacts and will show some burning that is normal.

    Those contacts are NOT easy to get and are made of Silver.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    So it all works but obviously not as well as it should. Plus that's trouble waiting to happen. I guess maybe I can just unscrew the hex head thing that isn't toasted on the right side and swap it? Unless they are easy to get.
    A solution to the burned tip I used was to swap it with the hold point (the rightmost one for the forward contactor). That puts the newest under the most-used hammer. When screwing it back onto the hold point just take care that the worn area is cross-ways with the hammer. If you take the hammer off to get to it you'll need to pay attention to the contact pressure - count all the washers and such and take care not to stretch the spring. Compare the pressure when complete to an unmodified hammer/tip and try to get it the same. A loose contact is what likely caused some of the burning on that leftmost one.

    As to those black squares. What are they? Do I need to make them from scratch or can I just buy them. Looks like I might need screws too as they are melted a bit. Not sure how to get them out of there too as the screws will hit the side of the DC Control box but I assume the assembly can be completely removed.
    Leave those alone. They're just an insulator for the arc breaker, the damage is from the breaking arc. You *might* find a good replacement for the (I suspect) asbestos, but probably not. It might be possible to flip that one over, or swap with the adjacent one if you really insist, but I'd leave it alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    Those contacts are NOT easy to get and are made of Silver.
    Yeah, the local jewelry findings shops were mildly scandalized when I asked about the availability of 5/8" hex fine silver. I also looked into retipping services when I was on this path but ended up using the hold points.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Yeah, the local jewelry findings shops were mildly scandalized when I asked about the availability of 5/8" hex fine silver. I also looked into retipping services when I was on this path but ended up using the hold points.
    This is where silver dimes come in handy.I used to work at a power plant and the electricians would change the contacts on the motor controls every few years they were 3/4" square and 1/8" thick they would just throw them in the trash I salvage them I have about a pound of just the contacts as I would just heat them to where they would just fall off the copper bar.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    So my parts came in from the waterjet and I need to get back to work to earn some money but wanted to make one last stab for now as it seems we have it narrowed down.

    I must admit I couldn't see how it would be a fuse in the disconnect box because I was getting 120v on L1 and L2. I figured, "how would the voltage be getting to L2 if the fuse was blown?". So I carry a pallet jack over a Lagun to get it in that small corner where the 10EE is. Give myself a hernia jockeying it around and getting it away from the wall. I open up the disconnect box and find this. Nice call Labeeman, fuses in there.

    20190611_192850.jpg

    I check continuity, while hanging upside down over the back of the machine as there is no space to pull it farther out. Great fun. It shows the L2 fuse as blown. Hmmm. So how was the power getting to all the L2 circuits in the lathe? Was it coming in from the L1 side? I just don't know electrical stuff well enough. Would love some insight if you know. Amazingly Home Depot has these fuses in stock and I pick up a pair for $2.52. Pop them in and...

    20190611_204857.jpg

    Everything works again. All the speeds and functions and everything. I am very happy to say the least. I figure before I put it back I will take care of some of the crunchy wires and other bad looking stuff. With most of that done I put it back. I can still get to the last item that I would like some direction on fixing.

    I found this in the DC Control box.
    Reverse Contactor:
    20190612_001735.jpg

    Forward Contactor:
    20190612_001728.jpg

    So it all works but obviously not as well as it should. Plus that's trouble waiting to happen. I guess maybe I can just unscrew the hex head thing that isn't toasted on the right side and swap it? Unless they are easy to get.

    As to those black squares. What are they? Do I need to make them from scratch or can I just buy them. Looks like I might need screws too as they are melted a bit. Not sure how to get them out of there too as the screws will hit the side of the DC Control box but I assume the assembly can be completely removed.

    So thanks guys. I now know a whole lot more about my electrical system on the 10EE and it's working again. Please let me know if you know where I can get replacements for those burned items.

    Thanks again. Paul.
    It Might pay you to relocate the disconnect box to a better place so you do not have to move 3000# machines to change fuses.

  9. #28
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    I was able to purchase a spare dc box and as Russ said, some of those contacts are more used than others, (usually the just the forward contactors) and came up with a nice set. If they are just mildly burnt, they can be faced ( lightly) on the lathe. Also as Russ said, they use washers under the contacts to set the strike adjustment.I made a simple LED setup to time the contacts so that they hit at the same time. I don't know how critical this is or if this is even correct, but it has been working great all these years and very minimal if at all arc burns on the contacts.


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