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1961 modular 10ee- top speed fluctuates. any advice?

lectrician1

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Location
Las Vegas
i just replaced the c16j tubes with scissio controls scr's. i also changed the c3j tube. i also replaced the rec3 diodes in the module. i set the compensation pot and the top speed pot.

here is the result

first thing in the morning i turn the machine on and it operates flawlessly throughout the speed range all the way up to 4000rpm.
after running for about 5 minutes, if i shut it off and turn it on again, the top speed will only go up to between 2000 and 2500 rpm.

look like the fa relay is working and the qsr relay works although there is residual magnetism that sometimes causes it not to work.

anyone have this type of problem?
maybe the field is not weakening after something warms up .

if i allow the machine to cool down for thirty minutes or so, same thing happens. it goes all the way to 4k then after warming up it only goes to 2k rpm. thanks. Rich
 
I have saved text from the archives that I have found helpful in the past. I will post this because it is very helpful.

I sincerely apologize that I couldn't post a link to whoever made it, but our 10ees good health comes before all,

from the archives of PM,

Module out test
First, let's deal with the polarity of the C16s. If you look on the bottom of the tube, the three wires coming out are labeled G, F+, and F-. That is the final word on which filament lead should be positive and which should be negative, I would not pay too much attention to the color of the sleeves. On mine, the red sleeves are negative, the positives are yellow. It may very well vary between different tube manufacturers. As to the Transformers, the 440 V Transformers I removed were not marked, nor were the 220 V ones I put in. You need to realize that being AC, the Transformers output does not truly have a positive or negative. That said, what the tube wants to see is the negative lead hooked to the wire which is most negative during its conduction time. The tube will only conduct when the voltage on the anode is positive with respect to the filament, at this time the negative lead should be at a lower voltage than the positive, with respect to the anode. So, how do we determine this? Actually, it's very easy to figure out. Set your meter to AC, and put it on a scale which is good for at least 350 V if it is not auto ranging. Connect one of your leads to the anode of the tube in question. Now, check the voltage between that anode lead and each of the two filament wires. You will see about a two half volt difference between the two leads, the filament lead which gives you the higher voltage is the negative lead. This may sound wrong to you, but trust me, it is correct. I will give you the explanation if you really feel you need it.

Second, I'm not sure I have ever seen anybody explain what actually happens when you remove the module, so let me fill you in on that detail here. Believe me, it is nothing magical. First, a little lesson on the schematic which I have seen presented here before. The areas where you see --> are the module terminals at the module end. The >-- is what the module plugs in to. Knowing this, you can see that when the module is pulled, there is no connection to the grid terminal of any of the tubes. You can also see that the field's freewheeling diode is also not connected to anything. So, here is what happens when you apply power. With no signal on their grid, each of the thyratrons will turn on as soon as the anode voltage is high enough to cause ionization. They will all act as simple half wave rectifiers with no control. This will apply full Armature voltage of around 240 V, while the field voltage will be reduced(due to the lack of freewheeling diode) to around half of normal(actually a bit less than half, mine has a bout 53 V on the field with the module removed.).

What is the purpose of this module out test? Well, by removing the module, you are removing all of the control components from the circuit. The only thing left connected is the main anode transformer, and the various filament windings on the other Transformers. All this test really does is let you know that all your tubes are good, and that power is available to the anodes and filament windings. Oh, yeah, it also kind of tells you that your motor is not burned out

Third, the filament polarity on the C16s will not affect operation of the machine, it will only affect the long-term life of the tubes. You should correct this before you put the lathe into service, but doing so will not fix your problem now.

Fourth, there are two reasons the control could be dropping out. One is the field failure relay, the other is the supply voltage could just plain be dropping somewhere to the point where the contactor cannot hold. Actually, there are probably others, one of these two is your problem however. I would like you to post your field voltages at the recommended test RPMs, as well as with the module removed. However, I think the voltage drop may be your problem. I say this because of the fact that it seems to drop out whenever the motor tries to accelerate rapidly. In other words, when ever the motor pulls a lot of current. The first thing that comes into my mind is you may have hooked up to a phase converter. Is this the case? If so, I believe you hooked the generated leg up to either L1 or L3, which would cause the voltage on those leads to drop when heavy current is pulled, which would drop out your main contactor. If you are hooked up to a converter, try making sure that L1 AND L3 are hooked up to the original single phase input and the generated leg goes to L2. You only need the phase converter for running the coolant pump, if you have one, anyway.

If you are hooked up directly to single phase, you may have a high resistance connection somewhere in the machine. Check the field voltage first, if it appears normal, I suspect a large voltage drop somewhere. If it is low, you need to find out why.

I am a little concerned when you say guesstimate the RPM, is your tach inoperative? I have one suggestion for you to try, but I will not even suggest it if you don't have a functional tach.
 
look like the fa relay is working and the qsr relay works although there is residual magnetism that sometimes causes it not to work

I suspect that it's gunk holding that relay rather than residual magnetism. I had to clean all my relays after finding the anti-plugging relay sticking.

Since the FA relay could be involved I'd also check the FA relay, make sure that this problem doesn't happen when you block that relay. You could also check the filed voltage while running, if it returns to max when the problem appears it's very likely the FA relay pulling in.
 
i switched the legs today no change.
i ran the machine without the module. the spindle was running between 2500 and 3000 and the QSR relay was chattering on and off.

one other thing. i noticed today that the purple light in the c3j tube seems to go out when the spindle goes above around 2000 rpm, is this normal?

thanks
Rich
 
Thermite ,I read your posts and it is very difficult to even decipher what you are trying to say.
I THINK you are saying i should search the forum for answers to my questions.
I have already searched for an answer in the threads. There are thousands of threads with thousands of posts. Many of the threads have titles like '10ee modular problem' or something vague like that. Then there are hundreds of responses, some extremely verbose like the response you just gave in which it is hard to understand what is your point. So maybe you have hours and hours to pour over the forums looking for answers to questions but i dont have that kind of time. I personally dont mind answering someones question on a topic that may have been discussed over and over on the threads. So i dont think it is out of line to ask a question to people who are well versed with this drive system. I dont know why it bothers you so much. If you could direct me to which key words to enter into the search bar to find this thread which you read which addresses this exact topic, I will try to find it. The last time i searched it came up with over 200 threads. please advise on how you would go about searching for the answer.
 
i started 7;30 this am. just finished now at 10pm. i am working on a '58 hlv and a '61 10ee. i work in my three car garage here in the desert at 105 degrees with the doors open. i take some breaks during the hottest part of the day for lunch, to order parts, to get a cool drink, to check ebay, craigslist, various machine auctions, facebook, and PM to see if there are any answers to my questions on how to proceed with certain issues. I do not spend 6 to 8 hours a day pouring over every thread in every category on practical machinist. I am extremely grateful for any help that i receive from any of the experts that contribute here. And I gladly contribute any things that i have learned along the way. I dont have the kind of idle time that you have. As you stated before, the info available here in past threads is hard to find. Could you find it in your heart to allow me the latitude to ask some questions to some folk who may actually get satisfaction by helping someone figure out a problem?
 
Check the voltage on F1 - F2 from midpoint on the speed dial to the end. When the drive is misbehaving it's very likely that you won't see any difference. If that's the case then the field weakening is not active. The most common reason for that is that the FA relay is stuck. FA closes when it sees high current draw on the armature, something that happens when accelerating.

It also could a misbehaving C3J, try and alternate if you have a spare. That's the "small tube" you're asking about and yes, it should start dimming some at the speed midpoint to maximum speed as the field weakening gets more active (bright = conducting, dim = less time conducting)
 
now that you hijacked, yet another thread, the kind folk that were following along offering some advice have to wade through all this off topic nonsense. i looked at some old posts of when i got my first WIAD in 2016, and some guy named 'monarchist' was ridiculing me and calling me lazy for asking questions. You really are not adding anything positive to the forum. I have had pleasant dealings with you in the past and i have spoken with you for hours over the phone, so i know you are a nice guy. Could you please stay on topic in my threads, offer something positive, please refrain from stories of blowing things up for the government, and singing praises for your 4Q solid state drive? When i get a machine that i change over to 4Q you can opine for hours and i will welcome all your input. For the mean time, please stay on topic, positive comments only, and please stick to common english phrases and spelling. i am only referring to MY THREADS ONLY. Thank you.
 
FYI you can block all messages from the people you don't want to read. Click on their name, and then there is an Add to Ignore List you can click on the left. All of their posts from then on show up collapsed with just their name showing, but with a button to view the post if you'd like.

Frankly, PM should know that I refuse to open threads in which a hover shows the last post was by someone (and there's maybe two) on my ignore list. Maybe I am in the minority, and said posts actually drive more traffic from lookie-loos. Kind of why FacePlant can't wean itself off Agent Orange.
 
FYI you can block all messages from the people you don't want to read. Click on their name, and then there is an Add to Ignore List you can click on the left. All of their posts from then on show up collapsed with just their name showing, but with a button to view the post if you'd like.

Frankly, PM should know that I refuse to open threads in which a hover shows the last post was by someone (and there's maybe two) on my ignore list. Maybe I am in the minority, and said posts actually drive more traffic from lookie-loos. Kind of why FacePlant can't wean itself off Agent Orange.

Thank you for that useable info. It will make this forum more enjoyable.
Endless amounts of bs to read for a little info.


Hal
 
I have saved text from the archives that I have found helpful in the past. I will post this because it is very helpful.

I sincerely apologize that I couldn't post a link to whoever made it, but our 10ees good health comes before all,

from the archives of PM,

Module out test
First, let's deal with the polarity of the C16s. ...
I think this may be the source of the post: rpm creeps up

Cal
 
John501

The Doctor was in poor health and I haven't seen any of his post in years.
He was very smart and helpful at trouble shooting .

Hal
 








 
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