2 Monarch project lathes, 1964 10EE, 1944 12"CK - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillWilly View Post
    I look forward to seeing your progress!
    As far as the 1944 CK
    Currently just about have the apron back together after completely taking it apart, cleaning out way too much crud in the bottom. Surprisingly the bijur pump had still been moving oil, after seeing all the crud in the bottom I was surprised it hadn't gummed up the intake. The apron has been repainted, many of the bearings replaced. Half nut and brass gear that engage the rack were in really good shape, wondering if they had been replaced at some point. The bushing on the cross slide drive gear was badly worn so I'll need to make sure the saddle oil line to that area, assuming there is one, is good.

    Had to make new barrels around the clutch engagement shaft for both clutch levers.

    I've also pulled the quick change gear box off and am working on disassembling that. It'll need new bearings too. I think this lathe may have sat unused for a few years, many of the bearing races have a small stained/pitted stripe, I presume from moisture combined with disuse.

    Both the apron and especially the QCGB were loaded with chips, presumably someone using compressed air without realizing those two areas have openings that allow chips to get into the works.

    The blue paint I ended up using on the CK isn't quite what I want for the whole lathe. Hazards of picking out paint colors online (computer screens aren't precisely color calibrated) but the pandemic limited my access to the local Sherman Williams store when I picked out the paint. Curb service only.

    On the 10EE:
    I'm working out the circuitry around the Parker 514c and 507, to incorporate the ELSR. I'm going to go with the potentiometer setting speed and the apron lever picking forward and reverse, to emulate the original functionality and my preferences. I hoping I can get the control for both drive units off of one potentiometer dial by using a 2-gang pot and some trim pots, and just switching between +10 and -10v reference for the pot for forward/reverse. This isn't going to be the cheapest approach as I'm completely scrapping the existing bastardized drive controllers, and putting in all the appropriate contactors, z-curve breakers, isolation transformers, etc to make this a complete rework. It has a factory coolant pump 1/10th HP 3PH that currently doesn't function, possibly just wiring, switch? I'm going to try to get that working with an inductive/capactive phase converter.

    Before getting into the actual rewiring part on the 10EE, I'm probably going to fab up a metal base to temporarily lift it about 2ft off the ground. Just had minor knee surgery so getting down into the guts and doing a clean job is going to take more time than I'm willing to spend bent over that low.

    Since the current electronics do turn the 5HP GE Kinamatic, just limited to about 1000 RPM, I'm going to get the new drive system working before I tackle pulling the old motor, checking the bearings and brushes, etc. But that is on the list, as I'm shooting for a complete rebuild. Going the the whole things is a really good way to actually understand all the aspects of this beast.

  2. #22
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    Default Removing Apron and QCGB

    Some quick notes on disassembling the apron and quick change gear box on my '44 12" CK:
    img_3014.jpg
    img_3015.jpg
    This is per my memory so may not be completely accurate.
    To remove the apron, remove the shaft support from the right side of the bed. The plate on the apron side of the QCGB needs to be removed. The cover on the top right of the QCGB comes off to get to the gear mechanisms on the end of the shafts.

    I was able to slide all but the threading screw out from the right side of the apron before pulling the apron.

    Notice the slotted screw on the face of the saddle in the first picture. It holds an alignment pin from the saddle into the apron. There's another one on the other side. These have to come out in addition to the six cap screws on the top of the saddle to drop the apron.

    img_3031.jpg

  3. #23
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    Disassembling the apron was a bit of a challenge as I had to drive out the bearing cones to get many of the shafts out. Before taking the apron apart, take a minute to notice the interlock mechanism from the half nuts to the carriage feed engagement. Its the bar that goes across the back of the apron. Also pay attention to the layout of the copper oil lines. They're going to need to be moved and you'll want them back were they came from. I carefully bent mine out of the way, you could probably remove them completely with care(?) and save bending them.

    img_3034.jpg

    The worm gear assembly going from the feed rod to the brass gear has it's own oil reserve and drain plug. I couldn't find replacements for the thrust bearings on either side of the worm except from Monarch at around $90 apiece.

    img_3041.jpg img_3044.jpg

    This was one of the shafts for which I had to drive the bearing cone out to get clearance for the gear in the center to slide out the left side of the image. The other was the tapered bearings behind the manual carriage feed handwheel. The cones were a very tight fit.
    img_3052.jpg

    The two clutches (carriage feed and cross slide feed) have a complex bearing/spring arrangement that is almost guaranteed to fall apart in the bottom of your apron when you try to take them out. This is where the CK diagrams from Monarch, or from vintagemachinery.org, are helpful.

    img_3069.jpg

    I'll try to get around to posting on the QCGB removal and disassembly later.

  4. #24
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    Default QCGB removal and disassembly

    (Note, I'm going to edit this over a couple of sittings. If you see this message it means it's not finished).

    img_3020.jpg

    Removing the QCGB requires some prep. All of the apron control/drive shafts have to come out of the right side of the QCGB first. The bevel gear going to the clutch engagement lever needs to come off, it is held on to the shaft through the bed of the lathe by a taper pin. Hopefully you can get it turned to an angle where you can drive this pin out. The feed reversing rod (shown) engages in a toothed lever on a shaft. That lever needs to come out, as well as the inner lever that rides on a roller backed by a spring which provides a detent mechanism.

    img_3142.jpg

    My model has run/stop buttons on the front of the QCGB that push rods going to switches on the back side. Those rodes slide out easily if you remove the run/stop plate.



    On the clutch side, the gear train into the QCGB comes off, but the swing arm holding the gear train is attached to the QCGB and won't come apart until later. On the gear train side of the QCGB, my lathe had a small tab screwed into the lathe bed where the top of the QCGB met the lathe bed. Needed to take this out to get the QCGB off. Sorry, no picture.

    Once these connections are out of the way there are four bolts, two on on the apron side and two on the gear train side, that hold the QCGB to the lathe bed. I rigged a strap to a gantry crane before removing them, it is heavy.

    img_3124.jpg

    Here's what the innards of the QCGB look like. It basically has three compartments, the third is off the left side of this picture and is what seen in the picture above from the apron side. The compartment on the right has arm mentioned above that holds the drive train gears from the headstock, and behind that a shaft with gears couple to one of the shifters. On the left side is the cone gears and the dogs for the other selector. Behind that is the cone gears, and below is the shaft that the selector rides on.

    This thing is a bit of a puzzle to disassemble. There are two bearing caps on the right (clutch) side of the picture. These caps cover taper bearings with the caps (and brass shims) loading the outer cone, so either the outer cone needs to come out the right side, or the bearing and shaft need to go inward. The inside of each of theses bearings has an oil retaining cap. I managed to drive out the bearing by getting a small brass punch in the key slot on the shaft so I could drive the bearing without damaging the oil cap. (I wasn't so lucky for all of these damn things).
    img_3133.jpg

    For the shaft that the big gear arm rides on, underneath the left side of the center flange is a set screw,holding a large hub in that center flange. Inside the hub are taper bearings for the shaft on either side. Removing that set screw allows the hub through the center flange to be slid to the right. Once its far enough to the right, the right shaft can be removed.

    img_3139.jpg

    Once the right side is out, the left side can be removed by removing the small gear and bear cap, driving out the bearing, and then removing the shaft toward the right (through the center compartment).

  5. #25
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    Default '44 CK QCGB bearing list

    Apparently there is a time limit on how long you can go back and edit a post. So the previous post is going to retain the initial message

    Here's a list of bearings as found in the guts of the QCGB. Be sure you're sitting down when you get the bill for these. Bearing shop thought I was rebuilding an airplane motor. It would take quite a few more HP to get this chunk of metal to fly.

    Hoffman LS10 roller bearing

    Timken-X 1775 taper with 1729-B outer cup (cup has a lip on it)

    (Qty 5) X-Timken 1986 taper with 1931 outer cup

    X-timken 1755 taper with x-timken 1729-B outer cup

    X-timken 1985 taper with x-timken 1931 outer cup

    Additionally, mine had a ND 3203 bearing in the center of the tumbler idle gear (#77 of the exploded parts diagram). This bearing isn't shown in the print and the oil mechanism was for the gear to spin directly on a small shaft which had an oil groove, so obviously it's a repair job. Unfortunately that oil mechanism didn't do a damn thing for the bearing so I'm going to try to get a -2RS bearing to go in there. The tumbler lever had two steel bushings to ride on a shaft, with quite a bit of wear/play despite the oil port. I'm replacing those bushings with bearing bronze. Both of those are provided oil with the "Oil tumbler at arrow" as marked on the feeds plate. Probably frequently overlooked.

    Unfortunately that additional bearing caught me as soon as I started re-assembly. So that is stalled until I can get to the local bearing shop.

    The cone gears all sit on a common key on their shaft. That key on mine was sheared at a couple points. Cheap to fix, before disassembly I was worried I had a bad gear or two due to some weird noises but things seemed to move appropriately. Since those cone gears engage with the above tumbler idler gear, the sheared key may coincide with additional bearing? Thankfully all of the gears are in good shape except for one face on the large compound gear. Looks like the selector wasn't aligning quite right. Gear appears to still be serviceable but hopefully I can improve the alignment.

    There are a quite a few pressed-in metal caps ("bearing caps") in the diagram. Obviously intended to retain oil around the bearings. Notches are cut in these to line up with the oil ports drilled in the casting, so they'll need to be put in with those notches lined back up with those oil ports. While many of those cups are center-bored to allow the appropriate shaft through, two of them at the ends are solid. I ended up mangling the two solid ones removing them, as I couldn't see how get them out without damage. Have to find or make suitable replacements.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I'm replacing those bushings with bearing bronze.

    On second thought those bushings were probably steel sleeves for a reason. The idler lever slides on a shaft with a captive gear keyed to that shaft. Those steel bushings need to slide the key too. I’ll tahe a closer look tomorrow but I think there may be some sound reasoning from the Monarch designers.

  7. #27
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    Default Oil tumbler at arrow

    That gear has a integral key. Which makes sense. So I don’t see any reason not to go with the bearing bronze.

    Here is a picture of the tumbler lever, geared shaft, and idler gear.
    ae60b7bd-b1e8-4899-8bc7-e2c16940131c.jpg
    Note the two slots on the top of the lever along either side of the gears. This is what you want to get oil into with the “oil tumbler at arrow” noted on the feeds and thread pitch plate. Thought that might be of interest to anyone with a similar Monarch that hasn’t seen the inside of the gear box. Since this provides oil to both gears and to the bushings that slide along that shaft, it is something that doesn’t do well without regular oiling.

  8. #28
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    Just a random update: the 1944 Monarch CK is getting closer to complete. Apron and quick change gearbox have had bearings replaced. Only major thing left is to go through the tailstock completely.
    img_3273.jpg

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