4 and 6 jaw chucks on a 10EE

Two part question on 4 and 6 jaw chucks for a 10EE.

1 - Whats the biggest practical size that should be run. I have heard 11 inch, but im thinking 8 inch is more practical with jaws extending out the edges and such. What do you guys think? Im kinda looking for the biggest that I can run because this is something I only want to buy once.

2 - Buck seems to be the only chucks I can find. The only problem I see with them is they are very heavy and I would be nervous running them at 4000 RPM on the tiny spindle mount of the 10EE. Anyone have any experience with that?

I know Monarch uses the Cushman chucks, which are very light, but its so hard to find one that hasn't been thru the war, I was hoping I could get some advice here.

Thanks guys and gals

I'm looking at buying a Pratt Burnerd from MSC. They have 3 and 6 jaw in 6 through 12 inch. I don't know how big a chuck is practical but I think 6 inch is a good size for the EE.

I have an 8 inch 4 jaw chuck and that IS the largest practical size chuck on a 10EE. I have a 10 inch 3 jaw for my series 62- 2013 while it would physically fit on the spindle it is far too big a chuck. The 8 inch I have is a Cushman it is not lightened, I would not run it at 4000 RPM but, for most work in that size chuck 4000 is not needed.

I don't have a 6 jaw chuck but, I would want a 6 inch if I were to get one. An 8 inch six jaw is pretty massive in comparison to a 6 inch.

Steve

scphantm said:

Two part question on 4 and 6 jaw chucks for a 10EE.

1 - Whats the biggest practical size that should be run. I have heard 11 inch, but im thinking 8 inch is more practical with jaws extending out the edges and such. What do you guys think? Im kinda looking for the biggest that I can run because this is something I only want to buy once.

Click to expand...

I have a 12" face plate (mounted right now), 8" 3 and 4 jaw chucks, 6" 3, 4, and 6 jaw chucks, and collet chucks (rubberflex and 5C). I use the collet chucks most, the 6" chucks next, the 8" 4 jaw occasionally, the 8" 3 jaw pretty much never.

In theory I guess you could mount a 10" chuck, if you could find one (or a back plate) with D-13 mount, but I wouldn't want one unless it was free. Would probably never use it and would need a lift to mount it.

scphantm said:

2 - Buck seems to be the only chucks I can find. The only problem I see with them is they are very heavy and I would be nervous running them at 4000 RPM on the tiny spindle mount of the 10EE.

Click to expand...

My 10EE only does 2500 rpm and I'd be afraid to run an 8" chuck even that fast.

-Steve M.

I think I have an 8 " 4 Jaw, that came with my 10EE. I added a 5" Pratt Burnerd. It was crapped out though. Handy size. I do have an 8" or 9" Buck Adjust-Tru. Can't say I have run the lathe a bunch with it, but it seems good. I haven't used my face plate. I did get a 6 inch Buck Adjust-Tru. I haven't fitted it to the lathe so no use of it yet.
Tom

I have the Cushman lightened monarch 8" 4jaw, A Bison set-tru 6"6 jaw which I use the most. A Bison 8" 3jaw used with soft jaws, Also a cushman collet chuck.

I just picked up a Jacobs Rubber Flex chuck. Looks like it was a good buy so far, needs a little cleaning but so far, very nice.

My lathe didn't come with a collet draw bar but instead of trying to put a kit together for that, I put one of those Shars 5C collet chucks on my wish list. I'm figuring if I can find a nice 4 jaw (looks like 8 inch is the best size) then I will be golden on the chuck front.

Oh, and probably an 11 inch faceplate

As you can see in this thread http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/factory-rebuild-10ee-162610/ from 2008, "Scott at Monarch" said that the chucks they would supply for use on the 10EE were 6 and 8 inch 4 jaw (solid reversible) and 6 and 8 inch 3 jaw (two piece jaws). The chucks are steel bodied and made by Pratt Burnerd. Doesn't say if the three jaw chucks are the "Set-Rite" model. You have to scroll down toward the end of his description of remanufacturing process for the 10EE.
David

To stimulate some thoughts on chucking, and to bring up some points made in the past by me and others, I will head in the direction that has worked for me, oh yes with photos, not just words. Well, for me pictures tell a more concise story.
As every ones needs may vary, this may apply or not.
In the past, myself and others found it very handy, most accurate, and more economical to make your own D1-3 plates and adapters.

I will start with these 4 jaw chucks. These I use to get high accuracy on shaft turning.
The top one is or was a Monarch 8" 4jaw that was damaged on the outer slots. I modified it to make it useful, by turning the OD down to 5 3/8", moved the screw retaining forks inboard as much as possible, then bored the center out to the limit of the small end of the spindle nose locating taper.
Also, shortened the screws and shortened the jaws, then ground all faces of the jaws in place on an older EE.
Finished this chuck off by refitting it to the spindle on the lathe it is used on, then had it dynamically balanced. I use this chuck for finish turning at high speed usually right at 3800rpm where the lathe runs glass smooth on parts from 1 1/2" to 3".
Chucking a ground shaft in this chuck, the shaft will run true 8" out. thus causing no bind when using the tail center.
The other chucks are a 4" Union, and an unusual 4 1/2" Skinner I salvaged from a Cristal Lake grinder that fell of a truck. The only modifications on those chucks is, the jaws have been ground true in an EE, and I made the back plates. These also, I use for high accuracy turning of shafts down to 1/2".
That is a start, later with photos, I will go into scroll chucks, 5C collet chucks, and their limitations "as I see it", and uses for what I do.

Moving along on shop made back plates,
Here a 8" Union steel body 4 jaw, this chuck is cored on the back making for lighter weight. Mostly used on my old MFG EE for general work, a very good chuck.



This photo on the right is the 4 1/2" Skinner 4jaw back plate.
On the left is a 4" 3jaw mounted to an extended back plate that has adjust screws for radial run-out. This was a back mount chuck that I drilled though from the front for the mounting screws. I machined the back of the chuck, and pressed in a ring for screws that are in the back plate to bear against. In effect making a small adjust true chuck at very low cost. Very handy for small parts.



Moving along in the adjust true mode in 5C collets, is this chuck, simply like the Buck style scroll chucks. The chuck is two piece with side adjust screws. The actual collet holding piece is a hardened off the shelf CNC collet holder, that was re-machined and pressed into the front portion of the chuck body. The shape of the chuck body was made so I could thin the back side of titanium engine valves. This was really easy to make.
The work on the valves was spec at 2 tenths run-out. I could size and or reshape a valve head front and backside in one setting.
The draw bar was fabricated to allow for offsets on other work via the single Timken bearing used for thrust in locking the collet, at the same time always pulling itself true to a entire draw bar run-out of .001" or less, even when off setting the chuck, very important holding close tolerances at high spindle speeds.


The 6" Buck six jaw chuck. I rebuilt this chuck, that would be another subject however. It repeats very well.
I tend not to like these for general work, but for thin wall, and or soft and delicate parts it is a must have for me.
The body of this chuck is rather thin, and the six slots in the front portion makes for a chuck that can be easily damaged.
Since its so thin, and cut away from the jaws slots this chuck can release a part at high speeds from it stretching. I keep the spindle speed below 2500rpm when using it.
Perhaps these photos show the advantage of making your own back-plates to suit various needs, they are really not hard to make on a lathe like the
EE, or make and locate the pins.
I would certainly like to see others chucking solutions.

Donie, nice job on those chucks!

What's the story with the dial indicator on the taper attachment?

-Steve M.

The indicator on the taper attachment bar is for finish cuts, I prefer that to a DRO for several reasons.

I found I first have to know where I am at, to know where I can go.

Like this,
To establish a base to move forward from with various chucking devices, I have tested them.
The materials used are various tool steels.
The diameters were 1" to 7/8" at a length of 2 1/2" held only by the chuck-no tail support.
The real fight is taper from Tool pressure resulting in spindle bearing, work piece, and chuck deflection. Making the work piece bigger on the outer end.

To reduce tool pressure I find the right tool angles, nose radius, and minimum depth of cut that will still make a chip, and still produce the fine finish these machines are capable of.
With this testing I was not going for a target size, only to find the best combination for reducing the deflection taper problem.

The worst chuck is the 6 jaw.
The next is various 3 jaw chucks.

5C collets pretty bad. Testing those out with a multiple selection stock Monarch lever, hand-wheel draw bars, and bullet nose. Lever draw bars being the worst there.
I was able to reduce this abit further with the 5C rig I fabricated in the above photo.

4 jaw chucks, much better. The smallest diameter chuck that fit the work, the better.

With that basic testing, I can get a base line, and juggle the problems around for a second finish cut, to hit the target size on important money making work.
Like this,
Using roughing tools, bring the work piece to 2 finish cuts from target size. Change to the finish tool, make the first finish cut as the base for the last finish cut.
I split tenths that way.

Donie, I have never seen 4 and 4 1/2 inch 4 jaw chucks with such massive jaws, they must be very rigid compared to normal size jaws.

Yes, the Union 4" jaws are the same width as the 8" Monarch chuck that I cut down in the photo. The 4 1/2" Skinner jaws are as wide as a typical 10" chuck.
Because of that, they are not of much use for off-setting small parts that would be normal for a 4"
The Skinner was off an old super accurate Crystal Lake cylindrical grinder.
My thoughts on these they are made for holding straight work pieces, bringing them dead true, and holding them solid, both are steel bodied
I moved the smaller Union to the Hardinge Chucker for times when deflection needs to be reduced.
They play a major role in close tolerance items on both machines.

Donie,

Lots of great information above. Keep it up!

donie said:

...
The draw bar was fabricated to allow for offsets on other work via the single Timken bearing used for thrust in locking the collet, at the same time always pulling itself true to a entire draw bar run-out of .001" or less, even when off setting the chuck, very important holding close tolerances at high spindle speeds.

...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I understand this part. It sounds like the bearing centers up the back end of the draw-tube. If you offset the chuck, the draw-tube will be at a slight angle, relative to the spindle, right?

I assume that the tapered bearing is just there to center things when tightening the collet, correct? Do you use the bearing with any lubrication?

What's the most that you offset the collet chuck?

Cal

Cal,
Yes the draw tube will off-set if the chuck is off-set, but its not much 2 ft from the chuck at the hand-wheel end. It is enough to cause a problem if something like a ball thrust bearing is used at the hand wheel end, where the balls and race will bear on edge. I kicked this around some even using a tapered plain bearing surface. This made the hand-wheel action sticky, and a bummer when doing the valves, as I had many to do, also the collet had to be very tight. The Timken bearing-a Harley Davidson engine main bearing solved that problem "ha ha".
I juggled this around the valve work pretty tight spec. I wanted to keep the hand-wheel small, and its run-out under .002", as any more caused vibration. I used no off-set on the valve work, but needed the adjust true feature to get the stems to run at a tenth, thus keeping the heads better then 2 tenths concentric. The valves were not for Harleys.

Since the very expensive racing valves stems are small, I did not need the full bore of a standard draw tube.
What I used was ground OD, honed ID steel hydraulic tubing. The bore is only alittle over 7/8", the OD is under that of a standard draw tube.
This allowed a tight fitting sleeve to used at the back end of the spindle. This sleeve in the photo slid forward, also contains the Timken bearing race. The sleeve is retained in position by a Harley Davidson right main bearing spiral snap ring-what can I say, I use what is on hand. Since the Timken bearing is only rotated when the collet is locked and unlocked, a smear of grease is all that is needed for lube, and the bearing is well protected when the sleeve is in place.

So, the sleeve is a tight fit in the back of the spindle, the Timken bearing pulls the tube concentric to the sleeve, eliminating play and run-out-with smooth action.

Now, at the collet end, since the draw tube is too small to thread for the collet, I adapted a larger short piece threaded to the tube, and that piece threaded for the collet.
That short piece is in the larger Jarno end of the spindle bore allowing off-set, as much as 1/8".
If that makes any sense at all.

A note here, I see I have 81 PMs, I don't read them for reasons that would take some time to explain, and could be disturbing.
If some one has something to say to me, say it on the open forum.----now at 82, they can knock on that door, it will never open.

Donie,

That makes perfect sense. Thanks!

Until you posted this, I hadn't thought about the draw tube of my Monarch lever collet closer draw tube flapping around inside the spindle. (Mine's waiting to be repaired, so I've never used it and I don't leave it in the spindle).

What do you think of Sjogren 2J collet chucks?

Cal

The 5C deal on the EE looks like an afterthought to me, the Hardinge deal is better in my experience.
With the 5C collets, it seems to me they become just plain horrible in sizes over 7/8", there is just not much metal there.

I have used the 2j system on larger lathes, have not come across one for the EE, it would have to be better then the 5C system, more meat in them.

Wow donie, you never cease to amaze me. That collet closer is amazing, i may have a new project on the horizon. How did you join the front and rear of the nose piece so that it was adjustable?

now that i typed that, i think i see three bolt heads on the front face of it. That would make sense, crack the bolts on the face, adjust it, lock it down.

got to love simplicity. Thanks Donie.

Hey, you still do engines? I may have one next winter that needs some TLC. 97 Evo out of a dresser, dude said he did the bottom end a few years ago but the way the bike bounces around im pretty sure the wheels aren't straight.

No, stopped doing HD work in 06. Economics, aging customer base, shops I did work for closed, rising costs, police war on bikers, and much more made it not worth while. Perhaps performance work on Hover-Rounds would be profitable these days.

Here are some other adjust true items that worked out good from the thrilling days of yesteryear.
This is a mod for a Sioux valve grinder. I cut off the crappy ball chuck, then made an adjust true chuck using an Erickson collet chuck extension. Saved several thousands not having to buy a Sunnen grinder to meet modern valve specs.



The most useful machine for crankcase work was a Moore jigborer. I reworked hundreds of case sets with that machine, everything from warped, busted and welded, bad manufacturing, mis-matched, spun out bearings and punching for big bore.
Every surface and hole on XL and FL engines could be done with the aid of a Wohlhaupter head.
I made this adjust true collet chuck for dowel pin shifting for mis-matched K model and XL engine cases to bring them into register on the Moore.